Baggage for the Befuddled

[vexillia]

I've been musing on the best way to use command and army baggage.   There's a lot of choices but I was mainly concerned with the "ME-effectiveness" of the various options.  The results of my musings are at http://tinyurl.com/dmvtl5 if it's of interest.

As always do let me know if you spot any errors.

[andrew]

The general principle for maximising the ME effect is:

4 sub generals : use the maximum army baggage
3 sub generals commands : indifferent - it is a question of command break points versus baggage vulnerability
<3 commands : use command baggage

The only qualifier for this is armies with regular sub generals and regular baggage should take army baggage to get the PIP dump dice.

Andrew

[edit : major typo]

[william]

  As usual Martin I do enjoy your thought provoking articles.

Now I do not want to point out any possible mistakes, just wondering could you consider a few points in your ponderings ( poetry in motion ).

Does all baggage if not army baggage have to be command baggage or can all baggage be placed in a generaled command, if so how is the ME then calculated.

If a command has Baggage (S) then can it still have army baggage ME allocated to it ?

Does it make sense to put Bge(S) in army baggage or in a generaled command ( therefore less pips to move )?

I noticed you have less than 4 ( 1,2,3 ) elements listed as possible army Baggage, can this be the case ? If army baggage has to be in a seperate command then does it not have to have a minimum of 4 elements.

It is also worth considering the fact that if one uses a baggage command and that baggage is very difficult to get at, it makes armies a little more difficult to break. When a command is broken then all elements in that command count as lost but not the baggage ME.

EG a command is 24ME including a contribution of 3 ME from army baggage, the command takes 8.5 ME losses, then 21 ME is counted as lost towards the Army total break not 24, so as long as the baggage is safe Army baggage IMHO makes an army more resiliant.

  And lastly regular baggage, cheesy as I am, it appears that a flank marching or delayed can still be part of dice allocation and if given the lowest dice it may never arrive, after 8 of the owners bounds it counts as lost towards the army break point but ( and this is thaks to Lawrence ) only the ME of the off table command

EG an army has a regular baggage command of 8 elements of Baggage (I), it has an ME of 4 and contributes 4 ME to each of four commands, like you have said 20 ME in total. The command is delayed and as it is does not have a general that is off table can be part of the regular pip structure and will of course be given the lowest dice, if none of the command has arrived after it's sides 8th bound then the baggage commands ME is added to losses to work out if the army is broken or not but only 4ME, therefore the command is still providing a very valuable 16 ME that can not be lost as long as the command stays off table.

These maybe just a few more things to consider when taking army baggage or not.

Keep up the good work.

William

[vexillia]

Quick comments as it's late:

Does all baggage if not army baggage have to be command baggage or can all baggage be placed in a generaled [sic]  command, if so how is the ME then calculated.

There's only army or command baggage.

I noticed you have less than 4 ( 1,2,3 ) elements listed as possible army Baggage, can this be the case ? If army baggage has to be in a separate command then does it not have to have a minimum of 4 elements.

I haven't seen anything that mandates a minimum.  The rules say 0-2 elements of baggage per command and to get the "benefit" of army baggage a command has to contribute at least one element. 

[william]

I haven't seen anything that mandates a minimum.  The rules say 0-2 elements of baggage per command and to get the "benefit" of army baggage a command has to contribute at least one element. 

Sorry Martin, I am not being clear, if Army baggage has to be in an Army baggage command ( IE train command ), then it has to have at least 4 elements, no I suppose it could have a mixture of baggage and other train but if there is no other train can Army baggage be formed with less than 4 baggage elements?

William

[vexillia]

Sorry Martin, I am not being clear, if Army baggage has to be in an Army baggage command ( IE train command ), then it has to have at least 4 elements, no I suppose it could have a mixture of baggage and other train but if there is no other train can Army baggage be formed with less than 4 baggage elements?

Oh I see - page 14, paragraph 1, says all commands must have at least 4 elements.

Time to change the tables 

--

[andrew]

If a command has Baggage (S) then can it still have army baggage ME allocated to it ?

Hi William

A good question and one that I have been pondering lately.......

I believe the answers lie in the lists.  Often the BgS element is either an additional troop element (*see below) or it replaces either a Bg element or a troop element.

For example, list 2.69 (Sassanid Persian) has an option of regrading the CNC to BgS (0-1) : in this situation the BgS has replaced a troop element and is not command baggage, so I see no reason why you can't now pick 0-2 elements per General and have a full complement of army baggage in addition to the BgS.

Another example is list 2.53 (Ancient British): it has an option to upgrade a single Bg element to BgS - this BgS is part of the Bg allocation and is therefore subject to the normal Bg constraints.

*I can't find an example of an optional BgS element which is an extra element that doesn't replace anything else - maybe in one of the Medieval lists?  e.g. Germans?

Cheers
Andrew

[william]

  Hi Andrew,

Maybe Italian list 73 book 3, ( or even better three of them in a Papal Italian army but those are allies )

William

[MikeCampbell]

I am not being clear, if Army baggage has to be in an Army baggage command ( IE train command ), then it has to have at least 4 elements, no I suppose it could have a mixture of baggage and other train but if there is no other train can Army baggage be formed with less than 4 baggage elements?

Army baggage does NOT have to be in a seperate train command - it can all be combined in the CinC's command or that of of any Sub Gen.

[vexillia]

Army baggage does NOT have to be in a separate train command - it can all be combined in the CinC's command or that of of any Sub Gen.

Rules reference please.

[Barritus]

Page 14, Generals: "Train can form an extra 4-10 element command without a general."

[william]

I am not being clear, if Army baggage has to be in an Army baggage command ( IE train command ), then it has to have at least 4 elements, no I suppose it could have a mixture of baggage and other train but if there is no other train can Army baggage be formed with less than 4 baggage elements?

Army baggage does NOT have to be in a seperate train command - it can all be combined in the CinC's command or that of of any Sub Gen.

Maybe and probably so but that also has ramifications in ME for the army concerned and may even require an extra table.

William

[MikeCampbell]

What ramifications and how does it require an extra table?

I'll turn the question around and ask where's the rule that says that army baggage has to be in a train command?

The definition of baggge on page 9 where it says that Army Baggage is held in common, plus the last sentence where it says that it deploys in 1 of hte contributing commands do not force you to do so..

Plus the section on train commands says that train "can" be combined - not that it has to be - and it's a train command in the first place not a baggage one.

So the rules for baggage are the same as for other troops, except:

1/ it must be "held in common"
2/ it must deploy in 1 of the contributing commands, and
3/ it CAN be in a train command

Other than those it is treated just like any other element when deciding what command to put it in.

[william]

What ramifications and how does it require an extra table?

May be an example might get it right in my own head.

An army has 3 commands and takes an artillery piece,

If it forms a train command with the artillery then the baggage is possibly worth ( depending if all commands ) 6 ME,  each element of baggage is worth 1/2 me to each command including the train command.

If the baggage is command baggage ( IE each command keeps it's own baggage ) then it is also worth 6 ME ( 1x2 ME ) for each command.

If the baggage is to be brigaded together as army baggage but not a train command so therefore in a sub command how much ME is it worth ? I think and am open to correction it is worth 4.5 ME as it is worth 1/2 ME to each command that contributes to it. Now it may contribute all of it's ME to the controlling sub command ( that would make it 6 ME ) but I tried to do that once and it seemed to be disallowed.

  So if I am right ( and you must remember I am nearly always wrong ), where it Martin's well thought out tables is 3 elements of Baggage from 3 commands worth 4.5ME.

William

[william]

I'll turn the question around and ask where's the rule that says that army baggage has to be in a train command?

The definition of baggge on page 9 where it says that Army Baggage is held in common, plus the last sentence where it says that it deploys in 1 of hte contributing commands do not force you to do so..

Plus the section on train commands says that train "can" be combined - not that it has to be - and it's a train command in the first place not a baggage one.

So the rules for baggage are the same as for other troops, except:

1/ it must be "held in common"
2/ it must deploy in 1 of the contributing commands, and
3/ it CAN be in a train command

Other than those it is treated just like any other element when deciding what command to put it in.

Actually some players do think that Army baggage must be in a train command but I do not, in my responses I did state 'if' army baggage has to be in a train command. What I unable to figure out is the exact share or not of army baggages ME if it is placed in a sub ( or c in c's ) command. I would like to think ( but I feel I would be wrong ) that the entire ME goes to the commanding general, if one was playing with a huge command and a few small ones this might make the large command more resiliant if cumbersome. I am still trying to figure out how commanded army  baggage pools work and feel that the ME values of these command pools are not totally represented in Martin's tables.

William