When does this element conform?

[andrew]

Hi


We had another situation come up in a game yesterday.  It is the green players bound, the green element numbered 2 has just killed a blue element and compulsorily followed up, and in so doing contacted blue element numbered 1.  Both are single elements as depicted.

The question is when does blue element #1 turn to face green element #2?  Is this after shooting in the blue players bound?  Or can the blue player claim EMTLU during the combat phase?

Thanks
Andrew

[landmeister]

IMHO, element 1 should line up immediately after element 2 contacted it. On page 33 is read that an EMTLU can be made "...in either side's bound...". But I'm afraid that the consensus is that this is not so. I don't know why, however. 

[william]

Hello Andrew,

I think that element 1 turns to face after shooting in the next bound, I think ( though am not sure { although playing as such } ) that this contact is the type that does not turn to face till that point, is already 'Lined up' ( though again not in keeping with the definition that Phil gave recently ) and is a legal contact so therefore can not use an EMTLU.

Even if it was not all those things I am interpreting ( rightly or wrongly ) that an EMTLUs as 'extra movement' occours in the movement phase so if it did have to 'line up' this would occour in the next movement phase. Whether this would allow 1 ( if it is 1's bound ) to move away from the contact ( as 1 itself is yet in frontal combat ) to move straight ahead to avoid contact I am not sure. I have thought that there should be a sequence within the movement phase, previously contacted line up, moves made, line up according to those moves etc.

But as Landmeister has posted it is a very contenious area, I think in games players should decide what happens in these situations before games start, in comps maybe the umpires may state how they would rule upon it.

  William

[foxgom]

Hi

Green bound:
Element 2 kills an element and pursing into Blues Element 1 s flank.
They cannot fight until the following bound.

Blue bound.
Blue Element 1 conforms for free during blues movement phase to fight Green element 2, i.e. before shooting.

The turn order is move-shoot-fight and the EMTLU is a move.

neil fox

[landmeister]

But why blue must conform in its bound and not when it was contacted? The EMTLU can be used "...in any bound...".

[william]

But why blue must conform in its bound and not when it was contacted? The EMTLU can be used "...in any bound...".

  Any bound yes, what time within the bound is the question.

William

[william]

Hi

Green bound:
Element 2 kills an element and pursing into Blues Element 1 s flank.
They cannot fight until the following bound.

Blue bound.
Blue Element 1 conforms for free during blues movement phase to fight Green element 2, i.e. before shooting.

The turn order is move-shoot-fight and the EMTLU is a move.

neil fox

No  blue does not turn for free in the blue bound movement phase, it turns to face ( if still there ) after shooting in the blue bound as it has been legally contacted on the flank front corner to front corner and is therefore lined up and so can not EMTLU.

William

[MikeCampbell]

IMO it turns immediately before the combat occurs - see "Turning to face", page 35.

the actual wording there is "turns before close combats" - so before any close combat.  Theoretically I guess this could mean at any time prior to then, but we have found it conventient to do it immediately before & I think that is the intent.

This is in contrast to DBM, where single elements contacted by groups turned immediately on contact, but others turned jsut before close combat IIRC.

[arvnranger]

But why blue must conform in its bound and not when it was contacted? The EMTLU can be used "...in any bound...".

  Any bound yes, what time within the bound is the question.

William

[it] When it is (any of) contacting, contacted or TZed. What's to question? Cheers, Ivan.

[arvnranger]

Hi


We had another situation come up in a game yesterday.  It is the green players bound, the green element numbered 2 has just killed a blue element and compulsorily followed up, and in so doing contacted blue element numbered 1.  Both are single elements as depicted.

The question is when does blue element #1 turn to face green element #2?  Is this after shooting in the blue players bound?  Or can the blue player claim EMTLU during the combat phase?

Thanks
Andrew

[it] By which you mean the Green player's close combat phase, immediately after the Green element's compulsory pursuit move contacted the Blue element? Another aspect to the geometry here is that the EMTLU is exactly 80p for the Blue element. I have seen numerous instances where EMTLU was not available because it was further than 80p to line up, eg TZed from the rear or obliquely or laterally offset from a flank. Cheers, Ivan.

[andrew]

Maybe I wasn't 100% clear - yes the choices were during the combat phase of Green's bound after the compulsory follow up, or during the blue players bound.........

Personally I see 2 options here.  One is EMTLU, the other is 'turning to face'.  Turning to face happens after movement and shooting (page 26 - 'sequence of play'), so under this rule the blue element would turn in the blue players bound after shooting.  However, EMTLU happens instantly - and if I'm reading the rules correctly, the EMTLU rule doesn't specifically state the EMTLU only happens during the movement phase.

I'm pretty relaxed either way but there are implications for the combat in the following bound.  Particularly if the blue player wishes to get rear support in the following bound (e.g. Pike).

Thanks everyone
Andrew

[foxgom]

Hi

ok, as green is corrected lined up, then the EMTLU cannot be used.

Have not understood what difference this makes.
If blue wants to have rear support, he can move another element in behind element 1, then both will turn 90 degrees to conform before close combat.
Blue cannot be shot at before conforming, as blue is in close combat.

If green was not perfectly lined up then EMTLU could be used.
I would play it that, as it is greens pursuit move, green could choose line up immediately.
Assuming green chooses not to line up immediately, blues turn begins.
Blue could choose to use EMTLU to line up or decide not to, in which case green must line up and blue turns to face just before combat, again without being shot at.

neil

[arvnranger]

Hi
ok, as green is corrected lined up, then the EMTLU cannot be used.

[it] It is Blue, not Green, using EMTLU in this instance (although in the Green bound, immediately after Green's compulsory pursuit into contact with Blue). Blue is not lined up with the front or flank of Green therefore *can* use EMTLU IMO. Am I missing something pivotal?

[andrew]

Hi Neil

I'm not sure I agree.  Green got to that position as a result of a compulsory follow up and the question is when does the blue element conform?  Green cannot use EMTLU given any additional move into (what is essentially) another legal position would be more than 80 paces, and it is already 'lined up' isn't it?  I gather lined up is not constrained to just front edge to front edge.

I don't believe blue can move an element into the rear support position as the elements currently stand per the image above because of the TZ rules, and the sequence of play is specifically Move > Shoot > Turn To Face > Combats.

So the choices were blue using EMTLU immediately on being contacted as a result of green's compulsory pursuit or 'turning to face'.  Turning to face shouldn't be in dispute, this would be after shooting in blue's next bound (given the combat occurred in greens bound).  So the question comes down whether the blue element could use EMTLU if it chooses to at the point in time it was contacted as part of the follow up.

The EMTLU rules state that EMTLU can only be used for elements "that are not lined up".  Is the green element lined up with the blue element?  If so, does that mean the blue element would be lined up with the green element by deduction?  Or is "lined up" considered separately for each element?  Furthermore, what does "lined up" actually mean?  Insofar as I can see "lined up" isn't defined in the rules......

Andrew

[foxgom]

Hi

P33 last para.
"line up with an enemy front, flank or rear edge".
As shown in the first diagram, green is therefore "lined up" (in a legal position with blues flank edge).

As green is lined up, neither side gets EMTLU.

What is to prevent an second blue element advancing straight ahead to touch the first blue elements rear edge? It would be moving directly ahead, which is legal in the TZ. The two elements could then turn 90 degrees to conform.

If green was, say, offset by 10mm, then EMTLU is possible I think my previous statement as to the order in who has what options is correct and it becomes even easier to get rear support. The second blue element would not even have to line up perfectly bend the first one. Both of them could habe EMTLU.

neil