EMTLU and sliding

[andrew]

Hello again

We had a question come up in a game today which I thought I might put to the forum.

Let's say I have a group of troops in a line that meet a line of enemy troops at an acute angle - the 2 battle lines were not perfectly parallel to each other (there wasn't much in it!).  My group has moved the full extent of it's permitted move, and the front right corner of my moving group makes contact with the front edge of an enemy element.  In addition, the far left corner of my moving group ends up less than 80 paces away from making a legal contact on either of the two enemy elements it now faces.  I will now use EMTLU to get the entire group into combat.

The key question is do I get a choice which way to slide after the initial pivot?  One of the directions has a consequence I would like to explore......

If I pivot and slide to my right then all is well as far as I can tell - no issues there.  However, if I pivot then slide to my left, the element that made the initial contact (my right-most element) ends out of contact with the enemy element it first contacted and it is in combat with the element beside the one it first contacted.  Does anyone have any issues with this?  Or is it ok?

I believe the TZ rules will come into play - in particular the 1st and 3rd bullet points.  The 1st bullet point supports the notion of being able to slide out of contact if the 'other' element is most directly to front, but the 3rd bullet point suggests it must fight the element it contacted given it hasn't moved into an overlap position.

Any and all opinions are welcome!

Thanks
Andrew

[foxgom]

hi

Which point in time is EMTLU done?

You could use it 5 nanometers before making contact or after making contact.

If this leads to two different line ups i.e. one to the left for EMTLU just before contact and one to the right for EMTLU after contact, then I would consider it gamesmanship.

Timing of EMTLU has been discussed elsewhere and I think it was agreed that it could take place at the start of a move, during a move or at the end of a move.
 
neil

[andrew]

Hi Neil

I'm not sure I am following you there......only one corner of the group can make it into contact using a full move.  Then EMTLU is being used once contact has been made.

I believe it is the TZ'ing element most directly in front that the contacting element would have to fight.  Whether that is the element it contacted or the one beside it would depend on which enemy element is directly opposite the middle of your element.

Regarding my first point and the 3rd bullet point from the TZ rules - given a corner is not part of an edge the 3rd bullet point is redundant.

Andrew

[andrew]

Here is an image:

[MikeCampbell]

As I understand it you can only slide to conform to the TZ-ing enemy element "most directly in front" (first bullet point under "Threat Zone" page 32) - so the direction of slide is a given unless it's an "even split", then I guess you can choose.

[andrew]

Hi Mike

That was the same conclusion I came to.  Do you interpret 'most directly in front' to be the enemy element in front of the middle of your element?  BTW the image was purposely drawn with an 'even split'.....

Andrew

[MikeCampbell]

the one in front of hte middle of your element seems right....at least on the face of it.

I usually interpret it to be the one with the most overlap if you project your element's frontage directly foward - or perhaps the one that you have to slide the least to contact (although I can't vouch that this will be the case 100% of the time it seems likely). 

[LawrenceG]

The various moves permitted in a TZ are in most cases mutually exclusive, so they must be alternatives.

Therefore, you have a choice of lining up in combat with the element most directly in front (1st bullet) or with an element your front edge has contacted (3rd bullet).

I don't believe there is any restriction on which element to line up with if your front edge is in contact with two enemy front edges.


One thing that is not clear is whether you are allowed to start your EMTLU in corner contact only, use part of it to pivot the front edge into contact, then apply bullet 3. I thought this was not allowed - your front edge must be in contact at the start of the EMTLU.

However, this does not match figure 9d, which implies that you must line up with the element contacted by your corner, even if this is not the most directly ahead. This figure is not consistent with the list of moves permitted in a TZ, which appear to give at least an option of entering combat with the straight ahead element.

I reckon that the contating, moving in a TZ and EMTLU rules could do with a bit of a clean-up in v1.1

[MikeCampbell]

Mostly the circumstances of the TZ lineups are exclusive by circumstance...eg you can't be contacting enemy with your front edge if they are behind you, and you can't move forward to contact if you are already in contact.

But AFAIK a front corner is not a front edge, and so the 3rd bullet does not apply.

also they are not "sequential" - the first one applies - and it does not say that you wheel forwards (thus contacting 2 elements) then slide sideways to contact only 1 of them - it says that you have to end in front-edge-to-front edge combat with the element most directly in front - and so that's what you have to use hte EMTLU for - not for any theoretical intermediate steps.

[LawrenceG]

Mostly the circumstances of the TZ lineups are exclusive by circumstance...eg you can't be contacting enemy with your front edge if they are behind you, and you can't move forward to contact if you are already in contact.

But AFAIK a front corner is not a front edge, and so the 3rd bullet does not apply.

also they are not "sequential" - the first one applies - and it does not say that you wheel forwards (thus contacting 2 elements) then slide sideways to contact only 1 of them - it says that you have to end in front-edge-to-front edge combat with the element most directly in front - and so that's what you have to use hte EMTLU for - not for any theoretical intermediate steps.

On the whole I agree with you. However if you are in corner contact with an enemy edge (but see below), there are only two ways of geting into contact lined up using pivots and slides. One is to pivot backwards until the extension of your front edge passes through the enemy front corner, then slide sideways to corner-to-corner, then pivot forwards into edge contact. The other is to pivot forwards into edge contact first, then slide sideways to line up.

Figure 9d appears to contradict what the rules say as it shows an element about to make a move into front edge contact in a way that is not a permitted option in a TZ.  Spear C is neither in contact with X's front edge nor is it most directly in front. If X came in from outside the TZ (this is not specified onthe diagram, but is the only way to make the diagram consistent with the rules) then C would be the TZ-ing element most directly in front at the time X reaches the TZ and bullet 1 would apply.

The options permitted in a TZ do not allow you to move into corner contact. We play it that you can move into corner contact and then use an EMTLU (and IMO this was intended), but strictly speaking this is not in accordance with the rules as written.

If using a normal move to enter a TZ you can wheel to end lined up (possibly in contact) (bullet 1), paying the PIPs to wheel. You cannot stop short some distance away  and use the EMTLU to wheel into a lined up position unless you use your full move distance in the normal move part (bullet 4).

You can move straight ahead so your corner almost, but not quite contacts the enemy (bullet 4) and pay PIPs for a short move, but you can't move the corner into contact. You could then EMTLU to line up not in contact. It may be possible to get yourself from not in contact into contact by the right combination of pivots and sideways movement.

If you are parallel you can move straight ahead into front edge to front edge contact not lined up (bullet 4) then EMTLU (bullet 3, which does not force you to line up with the one most directly ahead, so you have a choice).

IMO accepted practice is more permissive than the written rules and 1.1 would benefit from a rewrite to make it absolutely clear what is intended.

[MikeCampbell]

On the whole I agree with you. However if you are in corner contact with an enemy edge (but see below), there are only two ways of geting into contact lined up using pivots and slides. One is to pivot backwards until the extension of your front edge passes through the enemy front corner, then slide sideways to corner-to-corner, then pivot forwards into edge contact. The other is to pivot forwards into edge contact first, then slide sideways to line up.

Regardless of the intermediate steps, the TZ ruels require the element to get into contact as per bullet 1 - the intermediate steps do not alter this IMO.

9d indeed does seem to be in error - we need to remember that the diagrams have been known to be wrong - they were produced by someone other than Phil, and although he checked them if there are errors in them then they must be treated as incorrect and the written rules take precedence because of that.