Spontaneous Movement Options

[andrew]

Its been a bit quiet here lately, so here's a quick question on something I unexpectedly tripped on in my last game.....

Given the following scenario:



Which of the following options are correct, and which aren't?

[Valentinian Victor]

I believe option 4 is quite legal as they are the nearest enemy. I suppose that as the Warband elements are in a legal overlap position at the start of the bound that they are not required to go spono anyway?

[LawrenceG]

IMO the 240 p move is not legal. You only get the 80 p extra if the 160p move ends without the column in any contact with enemy.

In option 4 the concept is legal but the column has not wheeled correctly. The front element would wheel at the corner into edge contact and the second element would be in the overlap position, not directly behind the first as there is no space yet for it to wheel.

The other two moves are legal.

[Valentinian Victor]

IMO the 240 p move is not legal. You only get the 80 p extra if the 160p move ends without the column in any contact with enemy.

In option 4 the concept is legal but the column has not wheeled correctly. The front element would wheel at the corner into edge contact and the second element would be in the overlap position, not directly behind the first as there is no space yet for it to wheel.

The other two moves are legal.

Hmmmm...this could lead to the first two Warband elements going straight ahead, and the rear two hitting the enemy elements in the flank?

[LawrenceG]

Hmmmm...this could lead to the first two Warband elements going straight ahead, and the rear two hitting the enemy elements in the flank?

No, because moving the front edge into contact is not allowed for an element that is in column behind another moving element.

[Valentinian Victor]

Hmmmm...this could lead to the first two Warband elements going straight ahead, and the rear two hitting the enemy elements in the flank?

No, because moving the front edge into contact is not allowed for an element that is in column behind another moving element.

This does allow the question about when is an element in a column to rear its ugly head again. You could announce at the beginning of the bound that none of those four warband elements were a column, especially if they were spono as then they could be considered individual elements for movement purposes. I cannot see anywhere in the rules that does not allow you to move the first two elements straight forwards in spono, but then have the second pair of elements spono towards the nearest enemy elements, namely the ones in contact with your other elements. Unless of course the rules are interpreted as meaning that the front two elements have to head towards the enemy elements already in combat as they are closer than the ones to their front?

[LawrenceG]

Hmmmm...this could lead to the first two Warband elements going straight ahead, and the rear two hitting the enemy elements in the flank?

No, because moving the front edge into contact is not allowed for an element that is in column behind another moving element.

This does allow the question about when is an element in a column to rear its ugly head again. You could announce at the beginning of the bound that none of those four warband elements were a column, especially if they were spono as then they could be considered individual elements for movement purposes. I cannot see anywhere in the rules that does not allow you to move the first two elements straight forwards in spono, but then have the second pair of elements spono towards the nearest enemy elements, namely the ones in contact with your other elements. Unless of course the rules are interpreted as meaning that the front two elements have to head towards the enemy elements already in combat as they are closer than the ones to their front?

You can announce what you like, but a column is a geometrical relationship between elements and no amount of announcing can change that.

It is not all that clear from the rules, but it is in there ("Unless in column behind...), that if impetuous elements are in column behind another moving element then, whether they move as part of that column or as individual elements, the second bullet  (... move its front edge into contact or overlap...) CANNOT be used.

It is not stated in the rules, but I believe that Phil Barker has stated on the Yahoo group that it was his intention, that  if impetuous elements are in a column, then they MUST move as a column and not as single elements. I'mnot sure of his exact words, but I don't think it was his intention that you could, for example, move the front element off to the side to contact enemy and move the rest of the column straight ahead. (Another thing to clarify in 1.1)

[MikeCampbell]

You can announce what you like, but a column is a geometrical relationship between elements and no amount of announcing can change that.

Yep.

If yuo want the 4 elements to not be in a column then you have to spend PIPs to make it so

[andrew]

Thanks everyone.  This was my interpretation:

Option1 : is open to interpretation - "A spontaneous advance must be the full permitted tactical move distance, except that the element or column...must reduce its move by approximately 5-10p if needed to avoid ending in front corner-to-front corner contact with friends, unless its front edge contacts enemy or will overlap enemy".  Is the or part relating to not having to reduce the move by 5-10 paces, or is it an entirely new movement option?  I used to think you could stop early at the overlap position but now I'm not so sure given it is an exemption for having to reduce the move 5-10 paces to avoid ending as a group.  This was the part I tripped on!

Option 2 : not legal given it can move an extra 80 paces without ending in any contact with enemy (see below).

Option 3 : hasn't ended in any contact with enemy so is legal.  Sorry if the diagram isn't clear but Wb1 has ended in the TZ of E1 and none of the elements Wb1-4 have ended in any contact with any enemy.

Option 4 : my apologies - the diagram is not correct for 4 x single-based elements but would be correct for 2 x double-based elements and I didn't specify whether they were single or double-based elements (my bad!).  This is also a legal option (although I agree it is incorrectly depicted for single-based elements).

Andrew

[LawrenceG]

Thanks everyone.  This was my interpretation:

Option1 : is open to interpretation - "A spontaneous advance must be the full permitted tactical move distance, except that the element or column...must reduce its move by approximately 5-10p if needed to avoid ending in front corner-to-front corner contact with friends, unless its front edge contacts enemy or will overlap enemy".  Is the or part relating to not having to reduce the move by 5-10 paces, or is it an entirely new movement option?  I used to think you could stop early at the overlap position but now I'm not so sure given it is an exemption for having to reduce the move 5-10 paces to avoid ending as a group.  This was the part I tripped on!

Option 2 : not legal given it can move an extra 80 paces without ending in any contact with enemy (see below).

Option 3 : hasn't ended in any contact with enemy so is legal.  Sorry if the diagram isn't clear but Wb1 has ended in the TZ of E1 and none of the elements Wb1-4 have ended in any contact with any enemy.

Option 4 : my apologies - the diagram is not correct for 4 x single-based elements but would be correct for 2 x double-based elements and I didn't specify whether they were single or double-based elements (my bad!).  This is also a legal option (although I agree it is incorrectly depicted for single-based elements).

Andrew

Option 1: If ( (your front edge contacts enemy) or (your front edge overlaps enemy) ) and (you end in front corner to front corner contact with friends) then (you do not reduce your move by 5-10p).

Note, the bottom bullet on the "how far to move" paragraph allows you to stop when you contact enemy.

Option 2/3: I can see that the rules could be interpreted this way. I read it the opposite way, i.e. if you end your normal move in contact with enemy, then you can't get the extra 80p. Nor can you get it if the extra 80p would bring you into contact with enemy. I think the general idea is to get you nearer to the enemy you can't reach, not further away from enemy you can reach. Another candidate for a clarification in 1.1 ?

Option 4: OK, makes sense now.

[andrew]

Re option 1 : I have always played it the way you have just said, but I was pulled up on this last Friday and unfortunately I missed the last paragraph that states the move ends when you contact enemy.  Thankfully it didn't make any difference to the game!  {how to remember all of this when at the table in the middle of a battle???  It is so important to keep reading the rules, even after you have found the part you think is relevant!}

Options 2 & 3 - another interpretation I hadn't considered.

[vexillia]

I've been following this with interest and have resisted commenting until now.

So far, my reading of the thread suggests that there's a consensus emerging - there are at least two "legal" spontaneous outcome moves possible (1, & 4). 

Doesn't this strike people as odd?  I know it's DBMM but the essence of a spontaneous advance is an uncontrolled advance. If there are numerous options then a player may direct a spontaneous move to his advantage by selecting the option that best suits the circumstances.

I think the spontaneous advance rules should be read so as to provide one option. 

For what it's worth my reading is that the spontaneous advance in the diagram stops in side edge and front corner to front corner contact with friends in combat; so option 1.

[william]

  Ok is option 4 still considered legal, I thought sponatuous move would stop in overlap position, Wb(1) headind directly for enemy 3 may hit overlap position before flank contact, it may also have to line up with Wb(5). I think spontantuous troops can leave overlap position to enter flank contact ( if no contactable enemy to their front ) but what about this 'imediatly pivots around point of contact to end up parallell to enemy elements it meets'.

  And if corner to corner contact is 'contact' and is moving straight ahead will it not stop in overlap position on any straight ahead optional move?

William

[LawrenceG]

Well, as the last bullet (a) says stop when you contact enemy, but (b) says you can pivot to conform to enemy contacted, and the previous bullet says pivot parallel to enemy you have contacted, we have three possible actions on contacting enemy. Sometmes you can't do all of them, so you must have a choice if more than one is possible. 

I would say that pivoting from an overlap to a flank wrap is pivoting to conform to enemy you have contacted.

Phil may not have intended this. Clarification in 1.1 would be helpful.

On reflection I think that the move-ending criteria do prevent the straight ahead moves (options 2 and 3).

There are often options though, for example move straight ahead with no contact, or move to contact (not straight ahead), or follow a road might all be possible. 

[andrew]

@ Martin : Yes it does seem odd.....but it doesn't surprise me any more!

On reflection I think that the move-ending criteria do prevent the straight ahead moves (options 2 and 3).

I came to this same conclusion after I turned off my PC last night.

I'm glad I posted the question!  While we are discussing clarifications etc. I think we need to explore one more thing.....

Let's take the original scenario but remove Wb1-4; we now have Wb5 in frontal combat with E3, Wb6-8 behind Wb5.  Wb5 drew in combat in the opponents previous bound and have remained in front edge contact/combat.  I must now consider my options for moving Wb6-8 spontaneously.  Can any of Wb6, 7 or 8 spontaneously move into the overlap position?

Andrew