tactical factor for defending a river bank

[LawrenceG]

Am I right in thinking that (unlike in DBM) there is no +1 for defending a river bank?

Or am I suffering from a case of "can't see for looking" ?

[MikeCampbell]

Correct - the advantage yuo get from defending a river bank is now that the enemy will be in RGo or DGo depending on the river width and what the enemy is.

[arnimlueck]

May I jump at the occasion to ask something similar here:
if I want to defend a gully, can I line up my troops BEHIND the gully (in good going) and still claim higher ground versus the opponents coming through the gully? Or do I have to enter the terrain to claim that. Not sure how to translate the "higher ground" rules to the gully situation here.

[MikeCampbell]

The bit about being upslope or downslope is under "Hills" on page 19 and tactical factors on page 37 - from what I can see at least part of your edge (front or rear for foot or mounted) needs to be on the slope and hence in the gully.

[LawrenceG]

The bit about being upslope or downslope is under "Hills" on page 19 and tactical factors on page 37 - from what I can see at least part of your edge (front or rear for foot or mounted) needs to be on the slope and hence in the gully.

I think most situations are clear:

if you are mounted the enemy must be all in the gully but your rear edge can be outside.

For foot you are upslope if your front edge and all the enemy are in the gully.

If any part of the enemy is outside the gully you are not upslope.

BUT

If the edge of the gully is straight and your front edge is exactly lined up in contact with it I'd be inclined to say the element in the gully is downslope, the one outside is upslope. Others may argue that the front edges are at the same elevation. However, a gully with an exactly straight edge is unrealistic.

[william]

The bit about being upslope or downslope is under "Hills" on page 19 and tactical factors on page 37 - from what I can see at least part of your edge (front or rear for foot or mounted) needs to be on the slope and hence in the gully.

I think most situations are clear:

if you are mounted the enemy must be all in the gully but your rear edge can be outside.

For foot you are upslope if your front edge and all the enemy are in the gully.

If any part of the enemy is outside the gully you are not upslope.

BUT

If the edge of the gully is straight and your front edge is exactly lined up in contact with it I'd be inclined to say the element in the gully is downslope, the one outside is upslope. Others may argue that the front edges are at the same elevation. However, a gully with an exactly straight edge is unrealistic.

  Sorry lads I can not see the need for troops to be in the gully to get 'upslope' bonuses.

Firstly do not think mounted will get any bonus as the slope is not gentle in gullies ( only good going when moving along the gully ).

Secondly if all of the enemy is in the gully does not necessarily mean that your own front edge will be in the gully, it will still be upslope. If you are on a river bank fighting troops in the river you do not have to be in the river your self, or if an element's front edge is on the 'straight edge' of a hill it is it not still 'upslope' of an element on the opposite side of the edge of the hill?

  as always open to correction.

William

[MikeCampbell]

Lawrence as I read it the rear edge of mounted needs to be on the slope - not on the flat.

[LawrenceG]

Lawrence as I read it the rear edge of mounted needs to be on the slope - not on the flat.

I've lent my rules to a potential FOG convert so I can't check exactly what it says. I've always understood it to mean that if the rear edge is at a higher elevation than the opposing element then you would get the bonus (even if the rear edge is on flat ground). IIRC it does not use the words "higher elevation" but I don't think it uses the word "the rear edge must be on a slope" either. I think it might simply say the edge is "upslope" if it is "higher than".

If a mounted element was on a flat-topped hill, with just its front edge on the down slope, would it get the bonus? Or the rear edge is exactly on a ridge-line, where the gradient is zero?

Sorry lads I can not see the need for troops to be in the gully to get 'upslope' bonuses.

Firstly do not think mounted will get any bonus as the slope is not gentle in gullies ( only good going when moving along the gully ).

Secondly if all of the enemy is in the gully does not necessarily mean that your own front edge will be in the gully, it will still be upslope. If you are on a river bank fighting troops in the river you do not have to be in the river your self, or if an element's front edge is on the 'straight edge' of a hill it is it not still 'upslope' of an element on the opposite side of the edge of the hill?

I think the mounted need to be in good going, but not the opposing element. If you accept that you can be on the edge of the gully, not in it, then in this case the mounted outside would not be in the difficult going.

Personally I feel that any natural feature such as a hill or gully with a straight edge violates the rule that area features must be realistically shaped (and it would improve the look of our games if this rule was enforced).

[william]

  Hi Lads,

quoting from page 37 (Tactical factors ).

+1 If foot or train in close combat in an enemy bound with any of its front edge upslope of all it opponent

+1 If mounted in front edge combat in good going in own bound with any of its rear edge upslope of all its opponents.

Just so Lawrence can reference it.

Yes I do see that if my thinking is right about foot/train defending the edge of a gully then it is probable that the mounted should get it also. I think  I am going for an intentional meaning ( yes me) in that Iwould have thought that some down slope movement would have to be under taken to recieve this bonus ( again intent rather than whats in the rules).

As to staight edge terrian, I do think that some straight edges appear or occour naturally on some hills, eskers possibly, plateau edges and rifts ( but it has been a long time since my geographical school days ). I think the terrain system sizes lean towards rectangles and therefore oval pieces, I would be happy enough that those that looked straight be deemed otherwise. Gullys on the other hand do often appear to be straight edged as erosion for these features often takes place on natural stress lines within the rock ( or even fault lines ), not all gullys of course. Water features often have striaght edges so why can not some others, in a completely realistic way of course.

Also some of these features can be man made as well, barrows drainage ditches etc. so some straight lines might be expected.

As to the bonuses, yes both are supposed to be 'upslope' but it does not really say on the slope.

I do wonder about the to different ways of stating the combat, for foot/train 'in close combat'  for mounted 'in front edge combat', is this so flanking mounted can also claim the bonus.

I would also query the strange 'if any of its {front or rear} edge' , which would appear that not all of that edge has to be 'upslope' of all of it's opponent, IE if a foot combat straddles the edge of a hill with each element partly on the slope and partly on the flat and if one elements front corner is above all of it's opponent does it still get the bonus? I f so we have been playing it wrongly in Munster.

Long windedly as ever,

  William

[LawrenceG]

I do wonder about the to different ways of stating the combat, for foot/train 'in close combat'  for mounted 'in front edge combat', is this so flanking mounted can also claim the bonus.

If foot is facing uphill and attacked only on the rear edge it would get the bonus. Mounted in the same position would not.

Flanking mounted aiding another combat do not get the bonus, they just count as a -1 for the element aided. You have to be the main combat element, using your combat factor to get the bonus, so mounted in combat with the flank of expendables would get it.

[MikeCampbell]

Upslope means on the slope - if you are on a higher flat then you are higher but not upslope.

an upward slope; in a direction up a slope; up a slope
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/upslope

Or MSN-encarta:

up?slope [ ?p slōp ]
noun  (plural up?slopes)
 
Definition:   
1. ascending slope: a slope considered as being angled upward
2. meteorology cooling of rising air: the even cooling of air as it rises and expands

adjective 
 
Definition:   
1. situated on ascending slope: situated on, happening on, or caused by an ascending slope
2. meteorology formed by cooling of rising air: describes fog formed by the even cooling of air as it rises and expands

 


adverb 
 
Definition: toward higher point on slope: at or toward a higher point on a slope
 

If you are worried about the mathematical limits of ridgelines then you first need to define whether they are part of a slope or not.

If you find that a worthwhile exercise then go for it - I won't stop you! 

[LawrenceG]

Definition:   
1. situated on ascending slope: situated on, happening on, or caused by an ascending slope


If both elements are on the slope then by this definition, both are upslope.

So things are not quite that simple.

Is not "upslope" for game purposes defined in the rules somewhere?

I note that in 1.1 "upslope" is defined as applicable to elements on flat ground fighting those in gullies, but it is not defined for hills.

[william]

I do wonder about the to different ways of stating the combat, for foot/train 'in close combat'  for mounted 'in front edge combat', is this so flanking mounted can also claim the bonus.

If foot is facing uphill and attacked only on the rear edge it would get the bonus. Mounted in the same position would not.

Flanking mounted aiding another combat do not get the bonus, they just count as a -1 for the element aided. You have to be the main combat element, using your combat factor to get the bonus, so mounted in combat with the flank of expendables would get it.

 ;DYeh Yeah, picking on poor expendables again.

Just a quickie, where does it say you have to be the main combat element to get these bonuses?



  Ok I am only being picky.

William

[william]

  I suppose no one asked Phil as to what he meant by upslope?

William

[LawrenceG]

Just a quickie, where does it say you have to be the main combat element to get these bonuses?



  Ok I am only being picky.

William

Don't have my rules here so I'll let Mike answer that one.