Extra movement to line up

[Marcel Bos]

Hi all,

I like to know if an element on a flank can also use the extra movement to line up in combat, especially when it didn't move.
I have included two examples.

First example: A group of two (red) LH was caught in front, flank and rear by other (blue) LH.
LH X was destroyed, LH Y survived and turned 180o.
LH C couldn't participate in the next Close Combat, neither as overlap or as front edge combat, or could he line up with with the flank of LH Y?

Second example: A group of two (red) Kn was caught in front and flank by (blue) Cv and Ax.
Kn X was destroyed, and Cv A pursuit.
Ax B couldn't participate in the next Close Combat, neither as overlap or as front edge combat, or couldn't he line up with with the flank of Kn Y?

[landmeister]

In my opinion, both elements COULD use the EMTLU ithe player chooses to do it, but most of the members of this forum disagree because C and B didin't move into combat. They "found" themselves in these wierd situations with nothing to do except to insult their enemies 

[arvnranger]

In my opinion, both elements COULD use the EMTLU ithe player chooses to do it, but most of the members of this forum disagree because C and B didin't move into combat. They "found" themselves in these wierd situations with nothing to do except to insult their enemies 

[it] Yes, the problematic issue is agreeing whether "contacting, contacted" is instantaneous or continuous (ie condition is satisfied if the element *remains* in contact following an earlier move). As landmeister relates above we mainly play it as instantaneous, ie an element can use EMTLU at the instant of contact with an enemy element or TZ. I also agree this seems odd - the move you describe could be made by expending PIPs but an impetuous would do it by spontaneous move.

Cheers,
Ivan.

[MikeCampbell]

I like the simple English - if you are in contact then you have either contacted the enemy, or have been contacted by the enemy.

All I need to see is "contacted" and I'm gonna line up - solved

[arvnranger]

I like the simple English - if you are in contact then you have either contacted the enemy, or have been contacted by the enemy.
All I need to see is "contacted" and I'm gonna line up - solved

[it] So ... how would you answer Marcel's question? In the first part, would you say that LH "C" can line up front-corner-to-front-corner with LH "Y" using EMTLU and spending no PIPs? Could this be done immediately after the close combat in which LH "X" was destroyed (ie in the same bound)? If LH "C" was an Irr Kn(X) and PIPs were spent to put the Irr Kn(X) in legal flank contact with LH "Y" would this cost 1 or 2 PIPs?

Cheers,
Ivan.

[Marcel Bos]

Maybe 'troops that would move into close combat in real life must do so in the game' has something to do with it. Probably a general has no need to order (spent PIP's) LH C to charge LH Y in the flank it has already contacted. (It's just a thought ! 

[arnimlueck]

I have an academic extension of the problem. Take situation two in the original picture and assume it is a long column of Auxilia that is attacked. In the instance that the flanking element comes into contact (its front edge contacting the flanks of the first two Auxilia) what is the THIRD element in the attacked column allowed to do?

a) it is contacted (front corner to front corner) by the attacking flanking element and thus is allowed to slide 40mm sideways in this instance and in consequence turns the flanking element by 90??
b) corner to corner is nor valid contact thus it must stay put until its own turn to move?

[Marcel Bos]

I have an academic extension of the problem. Take situation two in the original picture and assume it is a long column of Auxilia that is attacked. In the instance that the flanking element comes into contact (its front edge contacting the flanks of the first two Auxilia) what is the THIRD element in the attacked column allowed to do?

a) it is contacted (front corner to front corner) by the attacking flanking element and thus is allowed to slide 40mm sideways in this instance and in consequence turns the flanking element by 90??
b) corner to corner is nor valid contact thus it must stay put until its own turn to move?

I have seen this discussion before, but I can't find the thread anymore.
First I think the element should slide then exactly 80p (so answer (a) isn't correct at all), but I play the line-up maximum as 79.9999999999p to prevent such slides, so I prefer answer (b) (but on an other reason), but others have an other opinion about that.

But this is not about my original question (thanks for the reply anyway):
Does an element line-up in close combat with the EMTLU, if that element and his opponent didn't move that bound?

[MikeCampbell]

Ivan IMO in both cases the flanking element lines up.

[arvnranger]

Ivan IMO in both cases the flanking element lines up.

[it] Using EMTLU (no PIPs) in either bound as long as they're in contact with enemy?

[arvnranger]

I have an academic extension of the problem. Take situation two in the original picture and assume it is a long column of Auxilia that is attacked. In the instance that the flanking element comes into contact (its front edge contacting the flanks of the first two Auxilia) what is the THIRD element in the attacked column allowed to do?

a) it is contacted (front corner to front corner) by the attacking flanking element and thus is allowed to slide 40mm sideways in this instance and in consequence turns the flanking element by 90??
b) corner to corner is nor valid contact thus it must stay put until its own turn to move?

[it] I think (b), not because of the invalidity of the contact but because the sideways slide will reach (if it isn't considered to "start in") the TZ of Cav "A" and to avoid the constraint of lining up with Cav "A" (exerting the TZ) it must contact the *front edge* (not side edge) of Ax "B" [BP 3, para 1, "Threat Zone", p32]. There's a sticky topic in the forum titled "Threat Zone - How far exactly?" that expounds upon this. I'm still not entirely comfortable with the determination of the forum but I want to play it the same way as everyone else.

Is an element's front corner considered part of the front edge? Geometrically it is ... but I suspect not in DBMM terms given the separate references to front edge and front corner in the rules.

Cheers,
Ivan.

[Marcel Bos]

[it] Using EMTLU (no PIPs) in either bound as long as they're in contact with enemy?

So far, Landmeister and Mike are in favour of using the EMTLU, but Ivan has it doubts about that.
If there is no official clarification I will give the EMTLU a try in my next game.

Thanks,

Marcel

[landmeister]

Is there new light in the trench 1.1?

[MikeCampbell]

The latest version of it is:

EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP IN CLOSE COMBAT OR IN A TZ
An element or group that has just contacted or been contacted by enemy must (and any moving in an enemy TZ may) move up to an extra 1 base width (80p) to line up with an enemy front, flank or rear edge (or fortification) by (a) a sideways shift and/or (b) wheel or pivot; or to (c) shorten group frontage by 1 element width by moving blocked elements the minimum distance to end immediately behind others. This expends no extra PIPs.

[andrew]

With the new rule it sounds like there has to be some sort of movement to claim EMTLU to line up.  It also appears that an element that pursues after winning a combat and ending in corner to corner contact with an enemy element also invokes EMTLU......I'm not sure I like that part.....