Allocating dice for ambushers

[landmeister]

This is related to my previous thread too. 

A whole regular sub-general command is in ambush. He cannot use the dummy because it must dice separately. First question: what's the point on giving the opponent that information? If he sees that I'm dicing a fourth separated dice with only three generals on table, he will smile, to say the least. 

And now the second question. This subbie was given on of the two highest the average PIP dice allocation. If I read it correctly, he'll not be included in the average untill it is discovered or moved. Right? If so, should I tell my opponent at the beginning of the game that one unseen command will be averaging dice? In a game last day I told my opponent that info immediately after I moved it, and he replied that this must be declared at the beginning of game. Otherwise is cheating. I found no arguments in the rules to counter this. 

All in all, I found that ambushes are pointless. Am I missing something? 

Thank you.

[lorenzomele]

This is related to my previous thread too. 

A whole regular sub-general command is in ambush. He cannot use the dummy because it must dice separately. First question: what's the point on giving the opponent that information? If he sees that I'm dicing a fourth separated dice with only three generals on table, he will smile, to say the least. 


L- As opponent I would not smile thinking to flank march, delayed or concealed corps. Ambushing a whole command is quite rarer and can be effective.


And now the second question. This subbie was given on of the two highest the average PIP dice allocation. If I read it correctly, he'll not be included in the average untill it is discovered or moved. Right?

L- Until the commander element is put on the table

If so, should I tell my opponent at the beginning of the game that one unseen command will be averaging dice?

L- No. Pag 22 Deployment stage section 5 paragraph says you must "record" the dice allocation. On page 26 there is written that player "specify" pip allocation. This means writing down somewhere ( I do it on plan ), not having to tell it to your opponent. He will guess the allocation later. If on the first turn you roll three identical pip dice, he will not guess nothing until next pip roll.
If a corps is in one of the special conditions listed at page 26, it will dice independently until the special condition will cease. In your case once you move the ambush troops putting the general on the table, from the following turn he will enter regular pip chain.
It's of course a correct behaviour show after the match your plan, with ambushes, pip allocation and the like.
Rgds
Lorenzo

In a game last day I told my opponent that info immediately after I moved it, and he replied that this must be declared at the beginning of game. Otherwise is cheating. I found no arguments in the rules to counter this. 

All in all, I found that ambushes are pointless. Am I missing something? 

Thank you.

[landmeister]

Onve again, youe responses are wonderfully clarifying.  

L- No. Pag 22 Deployment stage section 5 paragraph says you must "record" the dice allocation. On page 26 there is written that player "specify" pip allocation. This means writing down somewhere ( I do it on plan ), not having to tell it to your opponent. He will guess the allocation later. If on the first turn you roll three identical pip dice, he will not guess nothing until next pip roll.
If a corps is in one of the special conditions listed at page 26, it will dice independently until the special condition will cease. In your case once you move the ambush troops putting the general on the table, from the following turn he will enter regular pip chain.
It's of course a correct behaviour show after the match your plan, with ambushes, pip allocation and the like.

This is very interesting. What about this situation? There are three generals on table and a fourth one in ambush. I don't have to tell my opponent that the fourth dice is a dummy. As it must be of a different colour, it won't be suspicious. Could this be the only way to "hide" your ambush in PIP allocation? If so, the only problem would come once you get a 6!  

[lorenzomele]

Don't forget that a general can be in ambush just if all his troops are. BTW in the case you reported, the differently coloured die could be also a flank march, a delayed corps, or a cncealed command.
The net result is that your opponent will not know.

[landmeister]

I think this can be another can of worms. According to page 2, only ally and irregular commands, as well as "dummy generals" can use a diferent colour dice. Can an ambushed real sub-general be considered a "dummy general"? 

[lorenzomele]

I think this can be another can of worms. According to page 2, only ally and irregular commands, as well as "dummy generals" can use a diferent colour dice. Can an ambushed real sub-general be considered a "dummy general"? 

Read pag 26 pip section para 3 line 4:

However, a regular command whose general element has been lost or has not yet arrived on table from flank or delayed march or is in ambush or that is Concealed Command not yet placed, or a broken command or......................... dices independently".

[landmeister]

I know, Lorenzo. But the question is, dicing independently means using a different colour dice? A regular subbie shoud use the same colour dice as all other regulars. If I have to use an independent dice of the same colour, I'm telling my opponent that I have an ambush 

[toby]

I really think you are dancing on the head of a pin here. The intention is clearly that the ambushing general should dice as if they were any other independently dicing general - i.e. they should use a different colour/shape/sized dice. The intention is that your opponent doesn't know if they are ambushed, concealed, delayed or flank marching.

[landmeister]

I know, Toby  . But you should know my opponents. They are always trying to find a gap or hole in the rules to take advantage of it  .

Thank you.

[lorenzomele]

You should have proposed them as playtesters   

[toby]

Dave Mather's approach of just nailing their hands to the table ever time they try and twist the rules works wonders...

[landmeister]

This one is very good!..

[Orcoteuthis]

The rules about dice colour just causes trouble for no gain; one of Phil's little fixations. (Another problem is when you have an Irr CinC with a single Reg subbie - they allocate dice, but aren't allowed to use the same colour!)

Anyway, are your opponents consistently literalist? Did they, say, refuse to play with figures mounted on metal, plastic, or wooden bases during v1 (which, inexplicably, required bases to be made of card)? If not, spank them as the horrible little munchkins they are.

[toby]

I have to admit that I use dice with numbers on rather than PIPs and don't use a dice cup most of the time, and on occasions when I have the diameter of the opening has possibly not been in the correct range.

Sometime Phil is just trying to be helpful or paternal or offer opinions rather than lay down rules. You have to use common sense.

[Doug M.]

I know, Toby  . But you should know my opponents. They are always trying to find a gap or hole in the rules to take advantage of it  .

Thank you.

Then I wouldn't play with them any more. Anyone trying that locally would be taken out the back and given a severe rules lesson. Players like that are scum.