Author Topic: Internal irregular ally unreliable?  (Read 2781 times)

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j_e_bohn

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Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« on: August 24, 2010, 09:50:31 AM »
How can I deduct from an army list whether an internal irregular ally could be unreliable and therefore not contribute his baggage to the army baggage? Just through the enemys in the army list? If the list has itself as an enemy?


Greetings,


J?rgen

landmeister

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2010, 02:01:56 PM »
Could you please specify what list are you talking about?

lorenzomele

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2010, 03:16:09 PM »
If you are playing against the same army list nation, simulating a civil war.

j_e_bohn

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2010, 06:40:23 PM »
Sorry, maybe I wasn't precise enough.

(p. 9) "Baggage of an ally that could change sides must...remain with him as Command Baggage"

Ok now go for an example: Book 4 /4 Feudal French
They have an Internal Ally and they fought against themselves as we can dedunct from their enemys list.

Does this mean that this Internal Ally can possibly be unreliable and therefore he can not contribute his baggage to the Army Baggage?

If you are playing against the same army list nation, simulating a civil war.

This is right, but I cannot know in advance which list I'm playing against and include this in my army composition.

Greetings,

J?rgen

arvnranger

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2010, 11:17:35 PM »
(p. 9) "Baggage of an ally that could change sides must...remain with him as Command Baggage"
If you are playing against the same army list nation, simulating a civil war.
This is right, but I cannot know in advance which list I'm playing against and include this in my army composition.
[it] The "could" in "could change sides" can't be qualified. It's arbitrary (and possibly harsh on some armies vis-a-vis others) but, in the situation you posit, I don't believe the ally general's command can contribute their baggage to an army baggage command (on the basis that you "could" face a contemporary Feudal French force).

Read through the "Allies" section in the introduction at the front of the army list books. There are some pertinent rules here that aren't reproduced in the "rules" proper, viz (i) reliability of non-indented foreign allies and (ii) the baggage constraint for allied commands numbering fewer than 10 elements.

Cheers,
Ivan.

lorenzomele

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2010, 02:26:26 AM »
I understand your point.
The solution is simply to consider what kind of games you are going to play.
In an historical scenario you know in advance what situation you will simulate, so there is no problem. Same in a friendly game, you just have to ask your opponent if he will use the same army of yours and you will have the answer.
In a tournament you can ask the umpires, but I can tell you that is impossible to meet 4 different players using the same army you choosed. You should simply organize the ally corps with baggage inside it and not in the baggage army corps.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2010, 05:25:27 AM by lorenzomele »

arvnranger

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #6 on: August 26, 2010, 04:30:01 AM »
I understand your point.
The solution is simply what kind of games you are going to play.
In an historical scenario you know in advance what situation you will simulate, so there is no problem. Same in a friendly game, you just have to ask your opponent if he will use the same army of yours and you will have the answer.
In a tournament you can ask the umpires, but I can tell you that is impossible to meet 4 different players using the same army you choosed. You should simply organize the ally corps with baggage inside it and not in the baggage army corps.
[it] This would be the only option in a 1-list competition (which is all that is played in NZ currently). Multiple lists offer an opportunity, inefficient though it would be, to cope with the Civil War effect on the Army Bg in your OOB.

I take your point regarding the practical aspects of army selection. I'm not certain that all competition convenors would commit to advising all competitors of the others' army selections as a separate exercise to having their OOBs checked. This would be inviting selections conditional on those of the others and a good deal of recursion would ensue.

For irregulars, at least, the baggage benefit to command ME is minor.  What is quite handy in incorporating baggage into a army baggage command, besides the dual counting,  is the permissability of "hiding" it as a unitary clump behind terrain or troops that deter baggage raiders. Command baggage, subject to the intermingling at deployment rules, can be forced into an exposed position dependent on the role selected for their command. I frequently dispense with irreg allied baggage to avoid the attendant deployment constraints for the fighting troops in that command.

Cheers,
Ivan.

LAP1964

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #7 on: August 26, 2010, 07:59:28 PM »
Just glad i'm not going to do list checking for any comps.It will drive them to drink and more! :'(
LES

Tim Child

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2010, 10:25:14 PM »
For what it is worth, at Warfare this year (where I am list-checker and umpire) we are allowing players to amalgamate ally baggage in this situation, but if there is a risk of civil war they will have to bring another version of their list with the ally's baggage shifted to command baggage (no shifting around of other troops etc allowed), and the army break-factor recalculated accordingly.

It's a very simple re-calculation for the second list, but leads to potentially awkward debates about what constitutes a civil war situation.  Since I'm "God" for the weekend, I'm happy to make those decisions if need be, but it's not a solution to the issue which I would force on anyone else.

Tim Child

Orcoteuthis

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2010, 07:46:30 AM »
The annoying part is that this "feature" was brought to Phil's attention before v2.0 was finished, but he declined to either change the rule or explain how it's supposed to work in a competition.

The impression I get is that most competition arrangers rule that if the ally could change sides in any situation whatever, it can't pool baggage.

LawrenceG

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #10 on: October 10, 2010, 05:06:56 PM »
I suppose any ally's baggage could go in with the army baggage as long as you always flank march with him.

Orcoteuthis

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #11 on: October 10, 2010, 07:04:10 PM »
I suppose any ally's baggage could go in with the army baggage as long as you always flank march with him.
...

Truth may be stranger than fiction, but wargaming beats either.

lorenzomele

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Re: Internal irregular ally unreliable?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2010, 10:19:47 AM »
As list checker I would not allow for a dual list to be used against normal opponents and in civil wars.
For simplicity sake, I will consider in a tournament environment a civil war as an exceptional event, not the norm.
So I would let the reg ally baggage to be pooled.