Book 4 errata

[Orcoteuthis]

The next question would be, what troops can a Khwarizmian allied command include?

It must include Khwarizmian lancers and Qangli LH (F) (up to ½ of which can be upgraded to Cv (O)), and may optionally include militia archers and Qangli foot (iff any Qangli LH are upgraded).

Weirdly, it seems you can't have any Turkomans, as their minimum applies only if more than eight are used, and their maximum of 24 becomes 8 in an allied contingent.

[tadamson]

List 15, Qara-Khitan: Stuff about Khwarizmian allies doesn't make much sense.

Firstly, Khwarizmian allies are available from 1172, when the list itself doesn't start until 1186. Now there are many cases where a generic ally is available before the list itself (Numidians in a Syracusan list, for example), but in this case the Khwarizmian list notes clearly say the list starts with the foundation of the Khwarizmian state. How then can they be available as allies up to 14 years prior to the founding of their state?

Secondly, the allies are available until 1206. Yet the Qara-Khitan list notes say that "a Khwarizmian army helped the Qara-Khitai subdue a rebellion in Bukhara in 1207." So why aren't Khwarizmians available at least until then?

The next question would be, what troops can a Khwarizmian allied command include?

1. The Khwarazam list need a bit more work.  In 1097 Qutb ad-Dunya wa ad-Din Abul-Fath Muhammad Arslantegin ibn Anushtegin set himself as the first Shah of Khwarazam.  He paid tribute to the Seljuk Sultan. When the Khitan set up the Western Liao empire, the Khwarazami's became subjects. His grandson  Ala ad-Dunya wa ad-Din Abul Muzaffar Tekish ibn Il-Arslan used Khitan troops to overthrow his older brother and become shah. Tekish then progressively expanded his power (at the expense of other Seljuk and Khitan subject states). In 1198 the Calif appointed him (well with Baghdad under threat he had little choice) Sultan of Iraq, Khorasan, and Turkestan. By his death in 1200 Khwarizan was the most powerful stated in the Islamic world, only the neighbouring Ghurids could challenge him. It suited both sides to maintain the political stance that Khwarizam was still a tributary state in the Quara Khitai empire. The wars of 1206-8 caused the Ghurid empre to collapse and the Khwarizamis adsorbed the Western half. Khwarizam was now a huge powerful state but in 1218 the ruling elite deliberately chose to oppose the Mongols.

2. Khwarizami armies were supplied to the Empire at various stages between 1176 and 1204. At various times the Empire provided Khitan troops to it's subjects (though the subjects were obliged to pay and supply them) and a large contingent fought with the Khwarizamis in the conquest of Ghur in 1207.

3. With the current lists, an allied contingent of Khwarazami for the Empire would be:

Ally Gen - Reg Cv (S) @ 25AP                                            1
Khwarizmian lancers - Reg Cv (S) @ 10AP                   2-6
Qangli and similar horse archers - Irr LH (F) @ 4AP    2-10

This is not unreasonable.

[Quilts]

More Medieval German:

From 1440, Kn (S) "rich knights" forming the Spitz of DBE wedges are available to all types of commands. They should probably be allowed to Imperial and Territorial commands only.

Also, Kn (I) "poor knights" are allowed to be DBE'd behind "rich knights" or generals. Should probably say Kn (S) generals, as the current wording allows them, if regraded mercenary men-at-arms, to be DBE'd behind City Kn (O) or Cantonal Kn (I) generals.

Semi related to this is the Mercenary men-at-arms available from 1234.  By the wording they become 'poor knights' from 1440, but was that the intent? 

Seems odd that the worldly mercenaries would suffer the fate of the feudal chaps regarding declines in equipment/training/etc.

Cheers,

Dave

[Quilts]

Later Crusaders: This list can be used to provide an ally contingent to other lists, especially the Syrian list, and this offers some oddities.

1. Before 1188, the True Cross Bge (S) is listed as "0 or 1", rather than "0-1". By my understanding that allows it to be selected in an allied contingent. However it seems odd that such a talisman would be handed out to troops fighting with a Syrian army.

2. The downgrade for Guy de Lusignan's Inertness is compulsory from 1187 to 1190, meaning an allied contingent provided in those years could be similarly commanded. The idea of 8 Irr Kn (O) led by an Inert Irr Kn (O) ally general appeals to my sense of whimsy, as it's probably not what an opponent would expect to face in a Syrian army, and if loyal the knights would almost certainly go impetuous.

3. The upgrade for Richard I's Brilliance is another of those "available optional" troop types like the True Cross above. Once again it seems odd that a Syrian army dated 1191 to 1192 could have a Brilliant Crusader Ally general.

And why does Richard have to be Reg Kn(S) AND Brilliant?  It's all or none which I suspect was an oversight.

Cheers,

Dave 

[Charles]

List 82: French Ordonnance.

The Voulgiers of the arriere ban seem unusually expensive.   This list has them as Irr BD(I) @ 5AP or Irr Mtd BD(I) @ 6AP

Is this correct?

[Orcoteuthis]

List 82: French Ordonnance.

The Voulgiers of the arriere ban seem unusually expensive.   This list has them as Irr BD(I) @ 5AP or Irr Mtd BD(I) @ 6AP

Is this correct?

No, they should be 4 and 5 AP respectively.

[Orcoteuthis]

4/44 Po-Mo Russian has:

Upgrade militia Bw to handgunners - Irr Sh (I) @ 5AP, and Cossack Ps to handgunners - Irr Ps (S) @ 3AP    All

Since for whatever reason the rules only provide for Reg Shot, those Russian militiamen would have to become Reg Sh (I) @ 5AP

[tadamson]

4/44 Po-Mo Russian has:

Upgrade militia Bw to handgunners - Irr Sh (I) @ 5AP, and Cossack Ps to handgunners - Irr Ps (S) @ 3AP    All

Since for whatever reason the rules only provide for Reg Shot, those Russian militiamen would have to become Reg Sh (I) @ 5AP

The definition of Ps(s) includes handgunners.  Shot are handgunners who fight in ranks.

Tom..

[Orcoteuthis]

4/44 Po-Mo Russian has:

Upgrade militia Bw to handgunners - Irr Sh (I) @ 5AP, and Cossack Ps to handgunners - Irr Ps (S) @ 3AP    All

Since for whatever reason the rules only provide for Reg Shot, those Russian militiamen would have to become Reg Sh (I) @ 5AP

The definition of Ps(s) includes handgunners.  Shot are handgunners who fight in ranks.

Tom..

True, but I don't see the relevance. The problem is with the Sh, not the Ps.

[LawrenceG1]

4/44 Po-Mo Russian has:

Upgrade militia Bw to handgunners - Irr Sh (I) @ 5AP, and Cossack Ps to handgunners - Irr Ps (S) @ 3AP    All

Since for whatever reason the rules only provide for Reg Shot, those Russian militiamen would have to become Reg Sh (I) @ 5AP

The definition of Ps(s) includes handgunners.  Shot are handgunners who fight in ranks.

Tom..

True, but I don't see the relevance. The problem is with the Sh, not the Ps.

He thought the OP "Since for whatever reason the rules only provide for Reg Shot, those Russian militiamen would have to become Reg Sh (I) @ 5AP"
meant "All militia handgunners would have to be Reg Sh(I), not Ps(S)".

WHat he actually meant was "All militia shot would have to be Reg, not Irreg (because there are no Irregular Shot in in the rules)"

[Orcoteuthis]

The enemies list for French Ordonnance is:

E: 4/13, 4/61, 4/62, 4/68, 4/58, 4/76, 4/83, 4/85.

Note that 4/58 is out of order. It's also a list - Medieval Irish -
that I'm unsure should be in the list in the first place, so maybe
it's a typo for something else, tho no list in the gap between 4/68
and 4/76 seems a likely candidate.

Also, despite explicitly covering rebel as well as royal armies, the
list fails to list itself as an enemy.

[Barritus]

Later Hungarians: Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier, but there's a bit of unclarity regarding sub-generals in this list...

After 1492 you can upgrade sub-generals to regular as Reg Kn (O). However it doesn't say which sub-generals, and the LH list has both Hungarian and Szekeler sub-generals. As the list makes no distinction of which sub-generals can be upgraded, this suggests they all can be.

So...is it permitted to upgrade the Szekeler sub-general to regular? Should it be?

[mickhession]

It is possible, though I don't know if it should be.

Cheers
Mick

[additz]

The GERMAN MEDIEVAL Army list (413) includes the following option:
Only from 1440 AD: Bohemian mercenary crossbowmen – double based with ½ Reg Bw (X) @ 7AP in front, ½ Reg Bw (I) @ 2 AP behind.

From what I read in the rules only Bw(S) and (O) can be double based with Bw(X).
Is this Option to be ignored then ?

Thanks
Axel

[Orcoteuthis]

The GERMAN MEDIEVAL Army list (413) includes the following option:
Only from 1440 AD: Bohemian mercenary crossbowmen – double based with ½ Reg Bw (X) @ 7AP in front, ½ Reg Bw (I) @ 2 AP behind.

From what I read in the rules only Bw(S) and (O) can be double based with Bw(X).
Is this Option to be ignored then ?

That seems to be what's happening in practice - I'm not aware of anyone having used it. (Which is a shame as the troops are historically significant.)

The easiest fix would be to treat the rear rank as (O), but there appears to be insufficient interest in using them for a consensus to materialize. It doesn't help that the Medieval German list is also buggy and ambiguous in other respects, so people tend to avoid it.

You also get the Bw (X/I) types in the Hussite list, but that one isn't terribly popular either.