Second rank survivors

[landmeister]

I'm almost sure this was asked before but I couldn't find it, sorry. 

What happens when a 4 elements Pk column is contacted both frontally and on the third and fourth elements' flanks (not on the second one)? The front rank applies -1 because of that fliankg enemy element but what happens if it's beaten but not doubled. Are all elements destroyed?

I guess so, but some confirmation would be appreciated by the wise men here. 

Thank you in advance.

[gibby]

I would have thought just the front 2.

cheers
Jim

[Swampster]

Looking through the bullet points...

The key point surely is "all friendly elements with any part directly beyond are also destroyed if their nearest part is less... ...than the initially destroyed element".

The front element seems to die because the contact on 3 & 4 counts as contact on the front element's flank.

Element 2 doesn't count as having anything on its flank. Doesn't die.
3 & 4 have contact on their flank but aren't within a base depth of the initially destroyed element, so even though they are contacted to flank the don't die.

My take is that only the front element dies.

It seems even if you have two elements flanking a column of Pk(F) then only the front two ranks will die.

[Valentinian Victor]

Surely if the last two ranks are hit in the flank they will turn to face the flanking element? In this case then it would be best to fight the combat where the initial front edge to front edge contac was made first as there will be a -1 for those two elements being unable to recoil. If the front element is destroyed then the pursuit will have the effect of TZing the rear two elements so that if they beat the flanking element then in their next bound they can only stand in place or move backwards if they did not pursue.

[LAP1964]

Surely if the last two ranks are hit in the flank they will turn to face the flanking element? .

I don't think the 3rd rank turns as they are "providing rear support".But the 4th would turn,except in your own bound?
Page 33 Turning to Face Flank or Rear Contacts
LES

[landmeister]

My take is that only the front element dies.

It seems even if you have two elements flanking a column of Pk(F) then only the front two ranks will die.

Interesting. It sounds right to me. So contacting ranks beyond the second is pointless to kill more than one element.

Thank you.

[landmeister]

I don't think the 3rd rank turns as they are "providing rear support".But the 4th would turn,except in your own bound?
Page 33 Turning to Face Flank or Rear Contacts
LES

The rules say

...when an element which could in some bounds provide rear support to friends now in frontal combat is contacted to flank, this is treated as a contact with the friends flank

As I understand it, the fourth rank can provide rear support every two bounds. This means "in some bounds", not in all of them. So they wouldn't turn unless (F) or (I) behind fron rank (X).

[Valentinian Victor]

If this is how people interpret flank contact i.e. if you have 4 ranks of Pk(O) and its only the last two ranks who are hit and they do not turn to face the flankers then we have some potentially bizarre scenario's.

Lets take this scenario for a start. I have a Late Roman group comprising of 4 x Bd(O) and 2 x Ps(O). The group is in a formation of two ranks of 2 x Bd(O) and a third rank comprising the two Ps(O). Some Sasanid Cv(S) move into frontal combat with the formation. A Sasanid Lh(F) is in reach of the formation but can only overlap the last two elements as it does not have enough movement to overlap the front one. Now then, we have the rather strange situation where, if you lot are correct, that the second rank of Bd(O) should turn to face the flanking Lh(F) as should the Ps(O). But, they cannot as although the Bd(O) cannot provide rear support to the front Bd(O), as Bd(O) only get second rank support from other Bd(O) against Elephants of Knights, the third rank Ps(O) does provide support against all mounted apart from Kn(X)!!!

Figure that one out if you will!!

P.S. In all the games I have played if someone has hit the third or third and forth ranks of a formation they have always turned these ranks to face the flankers. I'm not even sure its a legal contact if combat cannot be fought during the bound.

[landmeister]

I know it sounds weird, but the rule is clear IMHO. If any element contacted on its flank can give rear support in any bound, then does not turn. I think none would turn in your example and the first one would apply -1, but a clarification here would be extremely appreciated 

[Geoff Pearson]

I know it sounds weird, but the rule is clear IMHO. If any element contacted on its flank can give rear support in any bound, then does not turn. I think none would turn in your example and the first one would apply -1, but a clarification here would be extremely appreciated 

If you look at the DBMM v2 Commentary it has a clarification.

Contacting a Second or Subsequent Enemy Rank in the Flank
See the figure below. If a friendly element (B in figure) contacts the 2nd or subsequent enemy
rank in the flank (Z in figure) while the enemy front rank (X in figure) is fighting a friendly
element (A in figure) there are two possible outcomes before combat is resolved: (a) the rear
rank turns to fight against the flanker or (b) the rear rank stays in place and the flanker counts
as flanking the first rank element (X).
If the rear rank(s) contacted could provide support vs the current frontal opponent in any
bound then they do not turn to face (for example if A was a Knight and X and Z were Spear).
The contact with their flank is counted as contact with the flank of the enemy front rank
element. If the rear rank(s) contacted cannot provide support vs the current frontal opponent,
they turn to face the flank-contacting element and will fight their own combat.

(the figure is on the page 35 clarification, open the pdf below to see it)
http://dbmm.org.uk/images/playaids/dbmm%20commentary%20v5_0_6_condensed.pdf

Best Regards
Geoff

[landmeister]

Hi Geoff,

Thank for your point. But what would happen in the example of Victor? Would the second blase turn and the Piloi would remain stationary?

[Geoff Pearson]

I have a Late Roman group comprising of 4 x Bd(O) and 2 x Ps(O).
The group is in a formation of two ranks of 2 x Bd(O) and a third rank comprising the two Ps(O).
Some Sasanid Cv(S) move into frontal combat with the formation.
A Sasanid Lh(F) is in reach of the formation but can only overlap the last two elements as it does not have enough movement to overlap the front one.
Now then, we have the rather strange situation where, if you lot are correct, that the second rank of Bd(O) should turn to face the flanking Lh(F) as should the Ps(O).
But, they cannot as although the Bd(O) cannot provide rear support to the front Bd(O), as Bd(O) only get second rank support from other Bd(O) against Elephants of Knights, the third rank Ps(O) does provide support against all mounted apart from Kn(X)!!!

Figure that one out if you will!!

OK I would rule that the LH(F) has legal contact with the 2nd blade not the Ps(O), the blade cannot give support to the blade in front so must turn to face the LH(F). The Ps(O) would also turn and support the 2nd blade.
The 2nd rank blade is the corner to corner contact so is the element to which the rules must apply first not the Ps(O).
Best Regards
Geoff

[Geoff Pearson]

I have a Late Roman group comprising of 4 x Bd(O) and 2 x Ps(O).
The group is in a formation of two ranks of 2 x Bd(O) and a third rank comprising the two Ps(O).
Some Sasanid Cv(S) move into frontal combat with the formation.
A Sasanid Lh(F) is in reach of the formation but can only overlap the last two elements as it does not have enough movement to overlap the front one.
Now then, we have the rather strange situation where, if you lot are correct, that the second rank of Bd(O) should turn to face the flanking Lh(F) as should the Ps(O).
But, they cannot as although the Bd(O) cannot provide rear support to the front Bd(O), as Bd(O) only get second rank support from other Bd(O) against Elephants of Knights, the third rank Ps(O) does provide support against all mounted apart from Kn(X)!!!

Figure that one out if you will!!

OK I would rule that the LH(F) has legal contact with the 2nd blade not the Ps(O), the blade cannot give support to the blade in front so must turn to face the LH(F). The Ps(O) would also turn and support the 2nd blade.
The 2nd rank blade is the corner to corner contact so is the element to which the rules must apply first not the Ps(O).
Best Regards
Geoff

Before you ask if the LH(F) only hit the Ps(O) in the flank it would not turn as it can support the front blade.
Best Regards
Geoff

[Valentinian Victor]

I dont think your correct Geoff as this part on page 35 clearly states-

'...when an element which could in some bounds provide rear support to friends now in frontal combat is contacted to flank, this is treated as a contact with the friends flank.'

So, in my Late Roman group example, the front blade element is in frontal combat with the Cv(S), the rear rank Ps(O) is provide support, in effect the rules state that the second blade element should turn to face the flanking Lh(F) but cannot as the Ps(O) counts the contact as 'a contact with the friends flank.'

I think this was overlooked during the V2 process. A much cleaner rule should be that only the front two ranks can be flanked, additional ranks have to turn to face the flankers.

What particularly worries me is that the statement 'when an element which could in some bounds provide rear support...'. Some dubious players could state that even though say the second rank Bd(O) cannot provide support against the Cv(S), it could provide rear rank support in 'some bounds' other than the bound its fighting now i.e. if an elephant element were to contact it. The whole section is open to interpretation and abuse. (Imagine someone stating that an eight deep column of Warband could potentially provide support, which of course they could if the front ranks keeps being destroyed!!!)

[Geoff Pearson]

I dont think your correct Geoff as this part on page 35 clearly states-

'...when an element which could in some bounds provide rear support to friends now in frontal combat is contacted to flank, this is treated as a contact with the friends flank.'

So, in my Late Roman group example, the front blade element is in frontal combat with the Cv(S), the rear rank Ps(O) is provide support, in effect the rules state that the second blade element should turn to face the flanking Lh(F) but cannot as the Ps(O) counts the contact as 'a contact with the friends flank.'

The 2nd blade turns immediately the Ps can now not give support to the front Blade and as the Ps(O) counts under "If an element's front edge contacts the flanks of 2 or more elements and that in front turns to face, the second and subsequent elements also turn unless already in contact on their rear edge." it turns with the 2nd blade.

Even if you disagree with the Ps(O) turning the 2nd blade would still move out and face the LH(F). The Ps(O) dose not stop it moving out and facing the LH but the Ps(O) would be blocked the blade from recoiling with its flank so the blade would have a -1 for that. It comes under "If an element or elements contacted in flank or on a corner have insufficient room to turn to face, the enemy element must move back to make room."

Best Regards
Geoff