Author Topic: Late Roman errata  (Read 3568 times)

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Valentinian Victor

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Late Roman errata
« on: August 03, 2011, 09:01:45 AM »
List 78, Late Imperial Roman needs some additions and corrections.

Gothic Warriors- From 323AD to 382AD Eastern only Wb(O) 3AP, 0 or 6-12, from 382AD Wb(O) or Reg Ax(S) 6-12. From 382AD Western Wb(O) or Reg Ax(S) 4-12.

From 350AD to 353AD Western only- Magnentius C-in-C Reg Cv(O) 28AP or Reg Bd(O) 27AP
Franks and Burgundians Wb(O) 3AP, 0-24
« Last Edit: November 01, 2011, 05:30:37 PM by Valentinian Victor »

tadamson

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Re: Late Roman errata
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2011, 01:40:07 PM »
Could you add a little detail as to why the changes are being suggested.

Ta...

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Late Roman errata
« Reply #2 on: October 23, 2011, 08:12:36 PM »
Could you add a little detail as to why the changes are being suggested.

Ta...

In the first instance it would be wrong to make Gothic Warriors compulsory for the Eastern half of the Late Roman Empire from 360AD as there is only evidence for this happening after 382AD. Constantius II and Julian hired Goth's on an as needed basis, as did Constantine I, Valens, Gratian and even Theodosius I. The treaty Constantine forced on the Goth's after their defeat at his hands in 323AD stated that they had to provide troops on demand, which it appears they did not only to the above named Emperors, but also to several  usurpers during the period 323AD to 382AD. And if the list is not changed you have the really strange situation in 376AD of Richomeres at Ad Salices having to field Goth's when he lead an army of only Roman troops against the Goths, and it would also force someone wishing to field Valens in 378AD at Adrianopolis to also take Gothic warriors, which would be absurd to be quite frank!

Magnetius was a usurper who ruled the West from 350AD to 353AD, he relied on a great number of Franks and Burgundians to bolster his ranks, they probably made up a large percentage of his army at Mursa.

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Late Roman errata
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 09:32:14 AM »
Further Late Roman errata- The Eastern Empire should have the option for Bge(F) Mules or Camels. There is a lot of pictorial evidence for baggage camels in use by the Late Romans, the pen & ink drawings of the Column of Theodosius and the Column of Arcadius show baggage mules, camels and even elephants (baggage elephants are also shown on a 6th Century Dyptych). I wont advocate for baggage elephants as they would be a nightmare to try and work out how they would operate!

Orcoteuthis

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Re: Late Roman errata
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2012, 08:08:07 AM »
Not sure why you think baggage elephants would be a nightmare? They'd differ from package mule Bge (F) in that Knights won't sponno into them and in treating some terrain differently, that's it. Oh, and they might be Irr even in a Roman army.

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Late Roman errata
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2012, 10:16:53 AM »
Not sure why you think baggage elephants would be a nightmare? They'd differ from package mule Bge (F) in that Knights won't sponno into them and in treating some terrain differently, that's it. Oh, and they might be Irr even in a Roman army.

I suspect I'd have far more success convincing Phil to allow baggage camels than baggage elephants! It would be interesting to know what the role of the elephants in the baggage train was, they are never shown pulling carts or wagons, and they dont appear to be laden down with baggage as there are always one to two riders on them. They were not used on the battlefield, they only appear in conjunction with the baggage train.

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Late Roman errata
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2013, 08:44:37 AM »
Further research has shown that Valentinian I had both Allemannic and Burgundian allies from about 368AD.

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Late Roman errata
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2014, 01:54:09 PM »
I've undertaken further research and propose the following changes to the Late Roman list and the reasons why-

Book 2, List 78, Late Imperial Roman.
Gothic Warriors- From 332AD to 376AD Eastern only Wb(O) 3AP, 0 or 6-12, from 382AD to 387AD Up to 1/4 Kn(F) 9AP, the rest Wb(O) 3AP 0 or 6-12. From 388AD Western Wb(O) 3AP or Reg Ax(S) 5AP 4-12, Eastern up to 1/2 Kn(F) 9AP, the rest Wb(O) 3AP or Reg Ax(S) 5AP 6-12.
 
The rationale for the above is that in 332AD Contantius, later to become Constantius II, inflicted a crushing defeat on the Goths in the name of his father, a reputed 120,000 Goths were killed or captured. A treaty was placed upon the Goths which had built into it that the Goths were to provide upon demand troops for the Roman army. Jordanes claims that Constantine could call upon 40,000 such Goths, the numbers of which of course could be an exaggeration. There is some evidence that Constantine was recruiting from various barbarian tribes for his upcoming invasion against the Sasanids which was postponed when Constantine died on his way to the campaign. We know Constantius II had not only that treaty to call upon but also he made treaties with both the Taifali and the Heruli Goths to aid him against the Sarmatians and Limogantes tribes, this according to Ammianus. Julian had 'Skythian Auxilliaries' with him on his Sasanid campaign according to Ammianus and 'Goths' according to Zosimus. In 364AD Procopius made a play for the Eastern throne with the support of either 3000 (Ammianus) or 10000 (Zosimus) Goths. After Valens defeated Procopius in 366AD he held a certain resentment against the Goths and mounted three campaigns against them between 367 and 369AD, defeating the Gothic king Athanaricus in the process. Sometime between 367 and 376AD Valens sent the Army of Thrace to support Fritigern's civil war against Athanaricus. With the Roman support Fritigern was victorious and converted to Valens Arrian brand of Christianity.  Valens had been recruiting Goths for his proposed invasion of Sasanid Persia from at least 374AD as there were already Gothic Chieftains with their fellow tribes men within the Eastern empire by the time the Goths crossed the Danube in 376AD. There are no records of there being any Goths recruited into the Roman army during the period 376AD to 382AD as during that time frame the Goths were actively at war with the Roman empire. From 382AD Goths were being recruited again to assist the Romans against other Goths, and from 388AD Goths formed a large contingent of most Roman armies. Goths should not be compulsory before 388AD when the Romans had to rely on a large proportion of Gothic recruits to fill the army due to lack of 'Roman' recruits due to the unstable situation in the Empire at the time. A percentage of the Eastern Late Roman Gothic recruits should be allowed as Irreg Kn(F) as large numbers of Greuthungi Goths were with the Tervingi and therefore could have potentially been recruited, however they should not be a compulsory part of any Gothic contingent for this reason.
 
From 350AD to 353AD Western only- Magnentius C-in-C Reg Cv(O) 28AP
Franks and Burgundians Wb(O) 3AP, 0-24
 
Magnentius killed Constantius II last brother Constans in 350AD and assumed the purple of the Western Empire. He recruited heavily from the Franks and Burgundians, using his family connections to them and there were many such warriors with him during the campaign against Constantius.
 
Only in 370AD in the West
Burgundian Allies
 
Valentinian I had approached the Burgundians with a plan for the Romans and Burgundians to join up and attack their mutual enemies the Alamanni. The Burgundians were only too keen to agree to this plan; they claimed a certain kinship with the Romans and had various unresolved disputes with the Alamanni. For whatever reason, despite the Burgundians sticking faithfully to their side of the bargain, Valentinian failed to turn up at the appointed time and place where both sides were to meet before descending on the Alamanni. Despite sending envoys imploring Valentinian to at least provide them with a safe escort home, no Roman army appeared and the Burgundians returned home in furious indignation. This does show that the Burgundians could have supported a Roman attack in 370AD.
 
Only from 372AD in the West
Alamanni Allies
 
In 374AD Valentinian agreed to stay and deal with the Alamanni King Macrianus in a way that was advantageous to both parties. Accordingly a meeting was agreed at the city of Mogonticum (modern Mayence) on the bank of the Rhine. Macrianus arrived at the appointed date and time on the north bank with a large number of warriors. Valentinian was conveyed over by boat in a scene very reminiscent of Valens meeting with Athanaricus in their meeting on the Danube. Speeches were made and an oath of friendship was taken by both leaders, Macrianus becoming a loyal ally to the Romans to the end of his days. Valentinian then retired to Trier for the winter. A large number of Alamannic troops were recruited, some Alamannic Kings such as Vadomarius were already serving as high ranking officers commaning both Alamannic and Roman troops prior to 374AD.
 
Baggage- The Eastern Empire should have the option for Bge(F) Mules or Camels. There is a lot of pictorial evidence for baggage camels in use by the Late Romans, the pen & ink drawings of the Column of Theodosius and of the Column of Arcadius show baggage mules, camels and even elephants (baggage elephants are also shown on a 6th Century Dyptych).