(S) grading and rear edge contact.

[fbfassan]

In Italy the prevalent opinion is that (S) grading is not applicable if the (S) element is contacted on the rear. What's your opinion, please ?

[landmeister]

Can I ask what this opinion is based on? 

[Orcoteuthis]

Probably based on the v1 rules were grading factors were based only on shooting or frontal close combat opponents.

In v2, (S) clearly does apply if contacted in rear only. It also applies if contacted to both front and rear. It seemingly does not apply if contacted in rear and one or both flanks, but not in the front (this may be a mistake).

[fbfassan]

Pag. 37. " Compare your element's total score before grading factors to
that of its shooting or frontal or sole close combat opponent before grading
factors, ... ".

If Sp(S) is contacted on the front and on the rear by enemy mtd, so I count the grading.
If LH(S) is contacted on the front by an enemy Lh(S), and on the flank or rear by an enemy Lh(0), no (S) grading, Lh(S) vs Lh(S) count as (O) vs (O).

But:

What if my Ax(S) is contacted only on the rear from an enemy LH(S) ?
What if my Cv(S) is contacted only on the rear from an enemy Cv(S) ?

[fbfassan]

The opinion about the non application of the grading (S) if only contacted on the rear maybe due to the text:
 "if superior in close combat ....."
Now the definition of close combat is in the first paragraph on page 35 where he says that the close combat occurs when an element moves or stays with its front edge in contact with an enemy. So the  element applies the S if it is in close combat or in frontal contact with an enemy element. If you got behind and did not fight in the front does not apply the S.
I don't know if this opinion is correct.
In this contest, " sole contact " is refered to Exp, Train, Bge, naval ....

Your opinion is very important !!

[landmeister]

Close combat conditions apply for both enemy elements. Otherwise one of them should not dice for it. The element moving into contact as per page 35 immediately impose close combat conditions on its opponent. On same page 35, 4th para we can read: "An element contacted by an enemy front edge on its rear edge...[...]...cannot turn or move before it HAS FOUGHT THE COMBAT." (Capitals are mine). So it is in close combat although not in a front edge combat.

In both of your examples, the enemy element is the "...sole close combat opponent...", so the grading applies, except for case b) as per exception of same grade and troop type.

[Orcoteuthis]

Pag. 37. " Compare your element's total score before grading factors to
that of its shooting or frontal or sole close combat opponent before grading
factors, ... ".

If Sp(S) is contacted on the front and on the rear by enemy mtd, so I count the grading.
If LH(S) is contacted on the front by an enemy Lh(S), and on the flank or rear by an enemy Lh(0), no (S) grading, Lh(S) vs Lh(S) count as (O) vs (O).

But:

What if my Ax(S) is contacted only on the rear from an enemy LH(S) ?
What if my Cv(S) is contacted only on the rear from an enemy Cv(S) ?

Why do you think different element types make a difference?

The (S) grading counts in all of your examples.

[fbfassan]

Thank you very much for your replies.

IMO, an element compare his grading with the  grading of the enemy element in contact if this is the sole contacting enemy element.
If the enemies in contact are two or more, the element compare his grading only with the enemy element in frontal contact.

So, if my LH(S) is contacted on the front by enemy LH(S) and on flank by enemy LH(O),  CF is 1(O) vs 2(O).

If my Cv(S) is contacted on the rear by enemy Cv(S), CF is 1(O) vs 3(O). If dice are 3 vs 1, my Cv(S) is not killed !!!

[Orcoteuthis]

Thank you very much for your replies.

IMO, an element compare his grading with the  grading of the enemy element in contact if this is the sole contacting enemy element.
If the enemies in contact are two or more, the element compare his grading only with the enemy element in frontal contact.

Not sure what you mean by comparing grading. The opponent's grade is irrelevant to what grading factors, if any, your element gets.

So, if my LH(S) is contacted on the front by enemy LH(S) and on flank by enemy LH(O),  CF is 1(O) vs 2(O).

No, it's 1(S) v. 2(S).

If my Cv(S) is contacted on the rear by enemy Cv(S), CF is 1(O) vs 3(O). If dice are 3 vs 1, my Cv(S) is not killed !!!

No, factors are 1(S) v. 3(S) and whether your element is killed depends on whose bound it is.

[fbfassan]

Not so easy grading (S) !

p. 37: " +2 if scoring more; and either mounted against mounted except (S) of the some type ..."
So Lh(S) vs LH(S) is as (O) vs (O).

But I failed the second exemple. You are right : " +1 if scoring equal ... ( stop ). " Sorry, my cavalry (S) is dead !! Not another game !

[landmeister]

p. 37: " +2 if scoring more; and either mounted against mounted except (S) of the some type ..."
So Lh(S) vs LH(S) is as (O) vs (O).

I agree.

But I failed the second exemple. You are right : " +1 if scoring equal ... ( stop ). " Sorry, my cavalry (S) is dead !! Not another game !

Ooops. I was wrong too  . Even worse, I think I never played so. I ignored all grading when fighting (S) vs (S). I didn't notice draws were not included. 

[landmeister]

IMO, an element compare his grading with the  grading of the enemy element in contact if this is the sole contacting enemy element. If the enemies in contact are two or more, the element compare his grading only with the enemy element in frontal contact.

Interesting. It seems you are right, but I'm not sure this is the intention of the author. Technically, a simultaneous attack on rear and on flank with no front contact downgrade (S) troops to (O)...and upgrade (I) and (F) troops to (O)!!!!    . Is this a posible bug?

[Orcoteuthis]

Not so easy grading (S) !

p. 37: " +2 if scoring more; and either mounted against mounted except (S) of the some type ..."
So Lh(S) vs LH(S) is as (O) vs (O).

No. The +2 if more doesn't apply, but the +1 on equals does, so it's not like (O) v. (O).

[Orcoteuthis]

IMO, an element compare his grading with the  grading of the enemy element in contact if this is the sole contacting enemy element. If the enemies in contact are two or more, the element compare his grading only with the enemy element in frontal contact.

Interesting. It seems you are right, but I'm not sure this is the intention of the author. Technically, a simultaneous attack on rear and on flank with no front contact downgrade (S) troops to (O)...and upgrade (I) and (F) troops to (O)!!!!    . Is this a posible bug?

For (I) and (F) it doesn't matter as they die on less anyway. But as I said above I do suspect it's a bug - Phil likely wasn't thinking of the possibility of rear and flank contact but no frontal contact, and seemingly no playtester was either.

[fbfassan]

p. 37: " +2 if scoring more; and either mounted against mounted except (S) of the some type ..."
So Lh(S) vs LH(S) is as (O) vs (O).[/quote]

No. The +2 if more doesn't apply, but the +1 on equals does, so it's not like (O) v. (O).
[/quote]

Absolutely right. I apologise.

But in your country is generally accepted the application of  (S) grading for element with  sole enemy contact on the rear ? have you experienced convention umpairing on this subiect ?