Author Topic: Mounted vs Foot ?!  (Read 4368 times)

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Xilophon76

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Mounted vs Foot ?!
« on: December 15, 2012, 09:03:17 AM »
I just wanted to hear other's people impression on the following point.

I have the feeling that mounted are in general better than infantry in DBMM, in other words they are "better in terms of point cost efficiency". It seems to me that people tend to use much more mounted (in tournament and competitive game play) than foot.

Mounted are much more mobile and fight in general as well and often better than as foot, plus have some (that I believe should be erased!) additional rules helping them such as the "no corner-to-corner overlap in my turn" and others.

Does the (expert) gamers out there share my point? if so, do they have any proposal (just for curiosity, clearly) of rules changes to alter this point a little in favor of foot? I love DBMM (by far the best out there!) but I dislike this often unhistorical situation that happens in competitive play: full of mounted and few foot...

Thanks!

Barritus

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Re: Mounted vs Foot ?!
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2012, 12:10:09 PM »
G'day Xilophon

That's a good question, and my answer is that I'm not sure.

Certainly things are more favourable for infantry than they were in Version 1 of the rules, when Cv (S) ruled the scene.

It's obvious that mounted have a mobility advantage over infantry, but as you point out the question is about value for AP rather than comparing element to element. Barker has said several times that points costs aren't going to change, so the only thing which can change is the rules.

In the case of the rules, the only one you specifically mention as favouring mounted elements is the "no overlaps" rule. Can I assume then that other rules you don't like are the lack of rear support for some infantry fighting some mounted, and the combat results of spent rather than dead which some mounted can obtain?

Looking at these rules, I'm not sure which could justifiably be removed. Barker's intent is to model ancient and medieval warfare as accurately as possible, and these rules all seem to be justified by the evidence (having said that, I'm not qualified to enter into a debate about any of them).

The problem is, of course, that if you keep the AP values and the rules the same, then you entrench the current value-for-AP situation, regardless of who it favours.

The response then is to see what options the infantry have. I'd suggest there are some rules which favour the infantry. For example, compared to DBM, infantry move further as a proportion of mounted moves. And sliding into flank contact is a lot easier too with the Extra Movement To Line Up. But one other factor I'd like to mention is Morale Equivalents. The deadliest mounted troops - Cv (S) and Kn - are all 2ME each; lose them and your commands are soon in trouble. By contrast, a lot of infantry are 0.5ME which means, with careful command structuring, you can afford a lot of casualties before the command breaks.

What this means is that for infantry armies to beat mounted armies, you have to play to your advantages, which is in greater numbers, the ability to hit flanks easily and the ability to absorb casualties. To counter the greater mobility of mounted armies, you need to march forward as quickly as possible to pin them in their deployment zone, use pairs of Ax elements in the flank zones to stop them marching out that way, and perhaps consider one or two flank marches to box them in.

In terms of armies in competition, my experience is that all-mounted armies don't dominate. Rather, well balanced armies do best. Having said that, at Cancon this year, the first three places were filled with Ottoman (balanced), Khitan Liao (mounted-heavy balanced) and Ayyubid (mounted). One of the other highly placed armies was New Kingdom Egyptian (balanced). I took Early Byzantines with more mounted than foot elements, but I also had an Inert C-in-C.

But when it comes to competitions, I don't really care what armies the winners want to take. I'm an average sort of player with no expectation of winning comps, so I take armies which interest me. The armies I've taken to DBMM version 2 comps are Alexandrian Macedonian, Galatian and Early Byzantine. Armies on the painting roster at the moment include Classical Indian, Burgundian Ordonnance and Early Etruscan. The last of these is a classic Pillow-Of-Death army, with massed Irr Sp (I) in four commands supported by generals, Cv (O) and baggage intended to allow huge casualties among the infantry. I'm fairly sure such an army would be quite capable of taking on a mounted army and coming out on top. And if you read my Battle Reports with the Burgundians on this forum, you'll see I've dismounted my Kn in all three games...
« Last Edit: December 15, 2012, 12:11:59 PM by Barritus »

Xilophon76

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Re: Mounted vs Foot ?!
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2012, 09:00:04 AM »
Hi Barritus,

thanks for the long and wise reply, I actually agree with it. It is also true that often by "balanced" we mean some infantry to hold the center and/or have a grip on terrain and the rest all mounted... so that is anyway a lot (often more than the true average historical for that army) more mounted, in terms of points or "battle line".

Regarding your point:
In the case of the rules, the only one you specifically mention as favouring mounted elements is the "no overlaps" rule.Can
I assume then that other rules you don't like are the lack of rear support for some infantry fighting some mounted, and the combat results of spent rather than dead which some mounted can obtain?


I agree that those rules that you mention (rear support and spent) are completely historical and balanced (actually I love the spent rule, much better than the older "flee" rule for game smoothness), so those actually I would not eliminate. The two rules I think are quite "interpretative" and "unbalancing" are the one I mentioned (one could also think that when mounted charge foot they have anyway a morale loss due to charging a larger/wider body of troops, so I believe one could erase that non-corner-overlap rule and gain a better balance) and the disheartned rule (ok, I dont expect people to agree with me here... but I find that the broken rule is already there, adding this finer level of "disheartnening" is just adding a complication). I believe the disheartening rules hits much more infantry (only Bd(S) cost 2 ME) than mounted (a lot of typically used mounted like Cv(S) and Kn are 2 ME)! So thats another rule I'll keep out to balance a little more mounted vs foot.

Anyway I agree with you: I often play with friends, so "we all like to win" but there is not a competition there... and so infantry can be easily plugged in there... like nice Bd(I) Viking armies invading the world ... :)

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Mounted vs Foot ?!
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2012, 09:29:49 AM »
I am going to say something that will probably surprise some people out there. I actually believe that (S) mounted have been defanged too much under V2. Yes, they dont count overlaps from foot in the mounted bound. However, the mounted (S) bonus only applies in defenceif they lose in the mounted bound and if they win in the foot bound. And this is coming from someone who prefers to play foot heavy armies.

I really think there is a case for (S) mounted to get a +1 CF in their own bound if they win against foot as well as a +1 if they lose, but no bonus or deductions in the foot bound. This would simulate the mounted charging in and the infantry not really being able to do much other than bracing themselves for the charge. If the foot survive then the mounted should then pay the cost in the foot bound.

Barritus

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Re: Mounted vs Foot ?!
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2012, 05:14:14 AM »
...The two rules I think are quite "interpretative" and "unbalancing" are the one I mentioned (one could also think that when mounted charge foot they have anyway a morale loss due to charging a larger/wider body of troops, so I believe one could erase that non-corner-overlap rule and gain a better balance) and the disheartned rule (ok, I dont expect people to agree with me here... but I find that the broken rule is already there, adding this finer level of "disheartnening" is just adding a complication). I believe the disheartening rules hits much more infantry (only Bd(S) cost 2 ME) than mounted (a lot of typically used mounted like Cv(S) and Kn are 2 ME)! So thats another rule I'll keep out to balance a little more mounted vs foot.
Hmm. Interesting. I hadn't thought of it that way, but I take your point that disheartening generally affects foot much more than mounted (actually, don't forget Sp (S) too). However I think it's a very useful rule for providing a "morale location" part way between "We're okay" and "We're out of here". In my experience, some of the most entertainign games involve disheartened commands fighting each other, and I enjoy the challenge of managing a disheartened command.

Quote
Anyway I agree with you: I often play with friends, so "we all like to win" but there is not a competition there... and so infantry can be easily plugged in there... like nice Bd(I) Viking armies invading the world ... :)
And that's the great thing about DBMM - it's brilliant in recreating historical match-ups, which is something we do a lot at the Canberra club. For example in the last couple of weeks a few of the guys played a 100AP comp involving pre-Columbian American armies, and over the years we've tried to run themed comps at our June event at Wintercon.

Orcoteuthis

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Re: Mounted vs Foot ?!
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2012, 08:01:57 PM »
2 ME troops avoid being shaken, yes, but they also derive less morale benefit from generals and baggage. Rather than saying 2 ME troops are advantaged, I'd say 1 ME ones are disadvantaged, having neither the unshakeability of 2 ME ones nor the expendability of ½ ME ones.

FWIW, my experience is that combined-arms armies tend to do best. All-infantry ones lack manoeuvrability, all-cavalry forces are small (and therefore fragile) and can't handle terrain. Also, all monotypes tend to find themselves being scissors facing wall-to-wall rocks.

Quilts

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Re: Mounted vs Foot ?!
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2013, 10:40:19 AM »
I am going to say something that will probably surprise some people out there. I actually believe that (S) mounted have been defanged too much under V2. Yes, they dont count overlaps from foot in the mounted bound. However, the mounted (S) bonus only applies in defenceif they lose in the mounted bound and if they win in the foot bound. And this is coming from someone who prefers to play foot heavy armies.

I really think there is a case for (S) mounted to get a +1 CF in their own bound if they win against foot as well as a +1 if they lose, but no bonus or deductions in the foot bound. This would simulate the mounted charging in and the infantry not really being able to do much other than bracing themselves for the charge. If the foot survive then the mounted should then pay the cost in the foot bound.

Hi,

I agree with your sentiment but would implement it slightly differently.  For some time (expressed on the yahoo group during the grading discussions for V2) I said that mounted (S) should get +1 in their own bound, just because it is their bound, so a factor of +3 becomes +4 etc but that the 'no overlap' rule should not apply in their own bound.  They already get to determine the order of combats so the 'no overlap' is just overkill IMHO.

It's in the opponents bound, when fighting foot, that all mounted should get the 'no overlap' rule, to simulate their extra mobility and to extract themselves from a situation that foot could not avoid.  Oh, and (S) mounted should not get a defensive bonus in the opponents bound....., hmmm, not knights anyway who's armour was in many ways used to permit them to attack harder and avoid defensive wounds rather than just providing something to 'hide behind'. 

Now I can't remember whether I had decided that Cv and LH should get a defensive bonus in the opponents bound.  If they did it would have been a -1 to the opponents score rather than +1 to their own score.....that much I am certain of :)

My 2 cents.

Cheers,

Quilts