Author Topic: Victory & penalty points  (Read 2090 times)

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additz

  • Guest
Victory & penalty points
« on: March 13, 2013, 03:15:24 PM »
Hi,

is it correct that a winner can have less VP than the opponent he has defeated?
is it correct that a 14:11 can be a draw or have a winner and a loser?

Thank you
Axel

Barritus

  • Guest
Re: Victory & penalty points
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2013, 03:43:41 PM »
Hi,

is it correct that a winner can have less VP than the opponent he has defeated?

It seems to be mathematically possible, but it's also spectacularly unlikely. The victor must have lost exactly 50% of their MEs, and have at least three commands either disheartened or having lost their general (but not broken).

I'm pretty sure I've played no more than a couple of games in which three or four commands have become disheartened - it's unlikely for losses to be so evenly spread. It's rare that I've had an army sit on 50% ME losses - in cases where I've been 0.5ME from breaking, that's been because an individual command is that close to breaking, and the army's losses at that time have been well under 50%.

I'm pretty sure it's been discussed on the DBMM list as part of a review of Version 1. IIRC such a result was slightly more possible in Version 1, and the rules were subsequently changed as a result.

Quote
is it correct that a 14:11 can be a draw or have a winner and a loser?

Yes. It's specifically listed as a possible score in an unfinished game. And it would occur in a finished game if the winner lost 40% or more ME with three commands disheartened (or their general lost), or exactly 50% with one command disheartened.

additz

  • Guest
Re: Victory & penalty points
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2013, 07:08:37 PM »
Yes - the first issue is extremely rare, I admit.

But regarding the two possibilities for a 14:11 (and other results):

How is this handled in a competition?
Isn't it unfair in such cases to give the same points for a draw as for a victory?

Axel

Barritus

  • Guest
Re: Victory & penalty points
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2013, 02:43:50 AM »
Regarding the two possibilities for a 14:11 (and other results):

How is this handled in a competition?

In most competitions organisers simply total up the points, regardless of the actual game results.

However, in some comps, organisers give bonus points to players who actually win their games. For example, they'll calculate the score as provided in the rules, then add 100 points to the score of the player who breaks his opponent's army. That way, one win is worth more than any number of draws.

Quote
Isn't it unfair in such cases to give the same points for a draw as for a victory?

Good question. The issue has been batted back and forth several times on the DBMM email list, and was discussed as part of the rules review for Version 2, so there are plenty of people who hold a similar view to you.

The answer I'd give to your question is Not necessarily. The scoring process is designed to provide some recognition of close games. I've played plenty of games where the winner has been 2 ME or less from defeat, and most people I've played have experienced the same. Under the DBM scoring system of recognising only broken commands, such games could still be scored 10-0 or 9-1. It certainly happened to me in competition: in one case my army was literally one element from breaking when my opponent's army broke, but none of my commands were broken (my C-in-C's command was more than half the army, and my opponent had also sacked my baggage); under the DBM scoring system, the score was 10-0 to me, despite the game being so desperately close.

However, it's also worth noting that winning scores like 14-11 and 15-10 are still fairly rare. If you inflict a few losses and dishearten one enemy command before losing, the score will probably be 22-3, which is satisfyingly decisive. If you break a small command and inflict a few losses on other commands before losing, the score will be around 19-6, which is still a wide margin. The scores only really get close if you inflict heavy losses on the enemy and also kill a couple of generals into the bargain before losing. (Keep in mind that most armies will break if you inflict 34% losses on two commands...)

Another way of looking at it is that the DBMM scoring system rewards players who get in and have a go; a player who loses a game yet still scores 10 or 11 points has obviously got his army into combat, and done what I think most people go to a competition to experience: an actual battle. Compare that to a player who deploys in a terrain box and sacrifices the barest minimum of troops to delay the enemy attack. I'm fairly sure that most Australian players would happily concede as many points to someone who pushed them to the edge as to someone who avoided a decisive clash.

additz

  • Guest
Re: Victory & penalty points
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2013, 07:44:48 AM »
We had a discussion about these issues in a German forum (Tiny Soldiers) and I set a link there to this thread,
so anybody there can read your oppinion.
Thank you very much for your detailed answer.

Axel

Barritus

  • Guest
Re: Victory & penalty points
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2013, 11:03:49 AM »
No worries!