Line-up in Close Combat

[Marcel Bos]

I have a question about a situation that occured in my last game.  Picture A presents the starting situation. The red player decided to move his Wb first and hit the corner of the blue Cv(c). The Wb, using all of his movement already (picture B), lined immediatly up with the back of the Cv using the extra 80p (picture C). Next the red player moved his two Ps straight forward (picture D).
The question is if the bleu Cv had to line up immediatly with the Ps, because it was a single element? Should the Wb follow (like pictue E)?

[Barritus]

None of your pictures are visible to me, so I'm guessing a bit what the situation is...

However, the first thought which comes to mind is to check whether elements are required to conform if they're already in close combat.

[Marcel Bos]

None of your pictures are visible to me, so I'm guessing a bit what the situation is...

Very strange  I enclosed it (only one .jpg) in the text and can see it very big and clearly at the start of my tekst on the forum.....

However, the first thought which comes to mind is to check whether elements are required to conform if they're already in close combat.

...... if they are already in close combat with there rear-edge only..... and if so..... does the enemy in the rear follow-up....

[landmeister]

No images visible to me either.  Could you please reupload them using an external service (imageshack, tinypic, etc.)?

[Marcel Bos]

No images visible to me either.  Could you please reupload them using an external service (imageshack, tinypic, etc.)?

I have used ACDSee to show it, you can see the picture at:
http://www.acdseeonline.com/shared-photo/M.%20Bos/6j7MrI9afcPJ7fNNZRUd/16108433/#16108433

I hope this works.
Is seems very difficult to add a picture to the forum, as an attachment I got every time the same error message about the path. 

[Barritus]

No images visible to me either.  Could you please reupload them using an external service (imageshack, tinypic, etc.)?

I have used ACDSee to show it, you can see the picture at:
http://www.acdseeonline.com/shared-photo/M.%20Bos/6j7MrI9afcPJ7fNNZRUd/16108433/#16108433

Yes, I can see it clearly. Thanks.

EDIT TO ADD: And since posting this reply, I can see the picture in the OP. Strange.

[Barritus]

However, the first thought which comes to mind is to check whether elements are required to conform if they're already in close combat.

...... if they are already in close combat with there rear-edge only..... and if so..... does the enemy in the rear follow-up....

I am sorry, but I am not sure I understand what you are saying.

For me, the key rule is on page 35, Turning to Face Flank or Rear contact, third paragraph:

An element contacted by an enemy front edge on its rear edge...cannot turn or move before it has fought the combat.

I take this to mean that having the warband hit the rear edge of the chariot locks the chariot in place, and the psiloi elements now have to conform to the chariot.

[Marcel Bos]

An element contacted by an enemy front edge on its rear edge...cannot turn or move before it has fought the combat.

I think this is what I was looking for...... but I can't find it in my version 1 rules...... we shall use it anyway from now on 

I take this to mean that having the warband hit the rear edge of the chariot locks the chariot in place, and the psiloi elements now have to conform to the chariot.

But the rules are still a littlebit unclear to me....... both Wb and Ps makes legal contact with Cv(c) in the same bound, whereas Wb has to confirm (extra 80p) immediatly after his movement tot Cv(c) and Cv(c) has to conform (extra 80p) immediatly, after movement of PS, tot Ps. The rule that you are refering to, Turning to Face, takes place after all tactical or spontanious movement is completed, but before combat.

But as it seems it don't happen often, so I can live with your explanation  thanx

[Barritus]

I take this to mean that having the warband hit the rear edge of the chariot locks the chariot in place, and the psiloi elements now have to conform to the chariot.

But the rules are still a littlebit unclear to me....... both Wb and Ps makes legal contact with Cv(c) in the same bound, whereas Wb has to confirm (extra 80p) immediatly after his movement tot Cv(c) and Cv(c) has to conform (extra 80p) immediatly, after movement of PS, tot Ps. The rule that you are refering to, Turning to Face, takes place after all tactical or spontanious movement is completed, but before combat.

While it's true that the Wb and Ps both contact the chariot in the same bound, there are precedents in the rules which suggest that the order in which otherwise identical events occur is important. For example, if you move elements into contact with each flank of an enemy element, that enemy element turns to face the element which contacted it first. So I think it's reasonable to assume that having the warband hit the chariot first is sufficient to lock the chariot in place. (Having said that, I admit this assumption is based only on a feeling and not on a strong grasp of the rules - I'd recommend asking your question on the email list.)

But as it seems it don't happen often, so I can live with your explanation  thanx

No worries. :-)

But I'd still recommend asking on the email list - questions like this can often reveal previously unnoticed contradictions or holes in the rules.

[Marcel Bos]

But I'd still recommend asking on the email list - questions like this can often reveal previously unnoticed contradictions or holes in the rules.

I have posted the question on DBMMlist now.

[landmeister]

Could someone tell what the answer was, please?

[Marcel Bos]

The most plausible answers came from Roger Greenwood:

I've not seen this situation before. I would apply the following sequence:
A single element contacted on a corner must line up. This is clear from the corner contact section.
As the chariot is not on the moving side it has effectively zero paces of movement.
It's only movement to line up is limited to the 80 paces in the extra move to line up rule.
The extra move to line up paragraph states that this only applies if the element is not already lined up in contact.
As the chariot is lined up in contact with the warband, it cannot therefore have any extra lining up move.
The warband is a friendly element in front of the moving psiloi which prevents the elements lining up as specified as a front corner contact.
This means the psiloi move is cancelled as per the rules in the first paragraph of moving into contact'

I cannot see any rule that suggests the chariot 'drags the warband round' with it as in diagram 'E'. The warband effectively obstructs the chariot lining up with any other element.

In deciding what happens in DBMM it is necessary to take one event at a time.
An element may be contacted front and rear in the same bound, but not at the same time.
If, in the example, the psiloi group contact the chariots first, it will conform (assuming other factors are not applying).
If the warband make contact first then this changes the situation for the psiloi move to contact. The order is all important.

There is nowhere in the rules that it explicitly states moves are sequential not simultaneous.
However, there is no mention anywhere of simultaneous movement.
The mechanisms would simply fail if it were otherwise. It seems so obvious that no-one has even raised the question before.
Curious really, under 7th edition and other rule sets simultaneous movement did happen.

Barritus found himself a companion 

[landmeister]

Ok. Thank you 

[foxgom]

hi

wb moves first and reaches corner
chariot does not conform as wb is a single element
see p33 must be part of a group....

wb moves conforms to rear edge
 emtlu

ps advance to contact and conform
also emtlu

Neil

[landmeister]

Just one more question. The Ps group is moving straight ahead and contacting an enemy group. Could they choose NOT no line up as they are a group moving straight ahead and contacting an enemy front corner? I guess the answer is yes. Even more, the whole Ps group cannot line up using the emtlu. Only the contacting element could.

Opinions?