DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: landmeister on August 24, 2008, 11:06:26 AM
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Dear all,
I want to make a quick reference sheet for pips spent by troops in GG and I would like your priceless opinion. Only difficult evolutions and irregular ineptness have been considered. Other concepts will be included later.
Please, look at this table and feel free to comment (columns are not considered, just lines).
Type of movement Single element Group including
Regular Irregular* Regular only Irregular**
Maximum distance straight ahead 1 1 1 1
Not maximum distance straight ahead 1 1 2 3
Maximum distance not straight ahead 1 2 2 3
Not maximum distance not straight ahead 1 2 3 4
Maximum distance turning 90? into a column --- --- 1 2
Not maximum distance turning 90? into a column --- --- 2 3
Expanding 90? from a column --- --- 1 2
Maximum distance turning 180? --- --- 2 3
Not maximum distance turning 180? --- --- 3 4
* Other than generals, Cv(O) in GG or Lights in GG or RG.
** Other than generals, Cv(O) in GG or Lights in GG or RG.
Thank you
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Hi David
I think this is a great idea can I add it to my "DBMM for the Befuddled" series? I think it will fit nicely in the movement sheet at http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2007/12/dbmm-deployment-movement.html (http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2007/12/dbmm-deployment-movement.html).
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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
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No, please! Or at least not yet! ;D
I'm not one of the "wise men" of this forum. I'm just asking for help and checking. Once checked, yes, I'll be very happy to see it published in your blog.
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I include a better copy as an attached file. I hope it'll be clearer now. ;)
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OK. I've been checking your table anyway. Most of it checks out but so far I am sure that:
- Less than full move does apply to 180 degree turn
I'm less sure about forming columns where you have any entry for a full move. As this applies to the front corners of the group/line I'm not sure if there are any circumstances where it's possible for both corners to move full.
So far I make the grid to be this:
(http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/msdocs/images/pip01.png)
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
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I've being doing some basic trigonometry!!!
If a three element wide line of Ps or Ax form a column in good going then both corners move 10 cm which is a full move. To achieve this the left most element must move forward a full move and the right most element must form the last element in the column. If the centre element moves forward then neither moves full.
So this makes the grid:
(http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/msdocs/images/pip02.png)
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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- Less than full move does apply to 180 degree turn
But you can move just and move your full distance towards the new direction. Remember that distance is measured fron inital front edge to final rear edge. This means that, in effect, you are moving more than your maximum! ;)
I'm less sure about forming columns where you have any entry for a full move. As this applies to the front corners of the group/line I'm not sure if there are any circumstances where it's possible for both corners to move full.
One of them moving at full is enough. What is penalized is both moving less. I admit that moving troops like Bd or Sp are a eird case, but troops like Ax, Ps, Bw, etc, have no problem at all.
BTW, I like your new grid. ;)
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If a three element wide line of Ps or Ax form a column in good going then both corners move 10 cm which is a full move. To achieve this the left most element must move forward a full move and the right most element must form the last element in the column. If the centre element moves forward then neither moves full.
Only the front element is relevant. All other elements joining the column are moved behind the head one without measuring distances individually (page 29). ;)
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- Less than full move does apply to 180 degree turn
But you can move just and move your full distance towards the new direction. Remember that distance is measured from initial front edge to final rear edge.
Your original grid included an extra PIP for moving less than full. This is excluded in point iv, second bullet, page 27. There is a penalty for any 180 turn no matter what the move distance.
[/quote]What is penalized is both moving less. [/quote]
OK. Agreed and this simplifies things.
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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If a three element wide line of Ps or Ax form a column in good going then both corners move 10 cm which is a full move. To achieve this the left most element must move forward a full move and the right most element must form the last element in the column. If the centre element moves forward then neither moves full.
Only the front element is relevant. All other elements joining the column are moved behind the head one without measuring distances individually (page 29). ;)
No. It's not just about measuring move distances involved in actually forming the column. I'm afraid you also have to measure the move of the front corner elements to ensure that at least one of them moves full otherwise you pay one more PIP.
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Your original grid included an extra PIP for moving less than full. This is excluded in point iv, second bullet, page 27. There is a penalty for any 180 turn no matter what the move distance.
Oooops. You're right! Sorry. ;D
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No. It's not just about measuring move distances involved in actually forming the column. I'm afraid you also have to measure the move of the front corner elements to ensure that at least one of them moves full otherwise you pay one more PIP.
Sorry, I can't follow you now ???. If the head element of the forming column moves at least one of its front corner at full speed, all other elements are not considered, so you mustn't pay one more PIP.
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No. It's not just about measuring move distances involved in actually forming the column. I'm afraid you also have to measure the move of the front corner elements to ensure that at least one of them moves full otherwise you pay one more PIP.
Sorry, I can't follow you now ???. If the head element of the forming column moves at least one of its front corner at full speed, all other elements are not considered, so you mustn't pay one more PIP.
From my reading you have to measure the original group corners not the column head to find out if you pay the extra pip. You measure the column head for the distance forward or sideways.
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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From my reading you have to measure the original group corners not the column head to find out if you pay the extra pip. You measure the column head for the distance forward or sideways.
Interesting question. I think I disagree, but the rules are certainly ambiguous and the Commentary is silent :-\. I-m afraid a nre entrey is needed for this.
One more thing. An Irregular Train/Exp/Naval element spends 3 pips to turn 180 degrees. Othewise, we got a new QRS for Pips :D
Thank you
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From my reading you have to measure the original group corners not the column head to find out if you pay the extra pip. You measure the column head for the distance forward or sideways.
Interesting question. I think I disagree, but the rules are certainly ambiguous and the Commentary is silent :-\. I-m afraid a new entry is needed for this.
You may be right there.
One more thing. An Irregular Train/Exp/Naval element spends 3 pips to turn 180 degrees.
Not Naval only single land elements. Not train only single elements of Exp and WWg.
So the grid is:
(http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/msdocs/images/pip03.png)
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Not Naval only single land elements. Not train only single elements of Exp and WWg.
Yes, you're right again.
Just one more thing. I think we should distinguish between Line to column straight ahead and Line to column not straight ahead. An additional PIP for groups should be added if the column is not completed in one only step.
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I've added a line for columns:
(http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/msdocs/images/pip04.png)
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Just one more thing. I think we should distinguish between Line to column straight ahead and Line to column not straight ahead. An additional PIP for groups should be added if the column is not completed in one only step.
Thinking ;-)
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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Just one more thing. I think we should distinguish between Line to column straight ahead and Line to column not straight ahead.
They are the same aren't they? It's only a difficult evolution for regulars if less than a full move, which we cover. For irregulars it's inept even if a full because both the straight ahead or the 90 move involves elements moving other than straight ahead.
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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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An additional PIP for groups should be added if the column is not completed in one only step.
I don't think it's that simple. I think it's the same pips as the first move into column.
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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Your two last messages raise a question to me. Now columns can only be formed straight ahead or turning 90? without being finished. I mean that we cannot make columns as per figure 4b in DBM.
Does a column formed in one only step pay one more PIP for being "a group other than a column wheeling"? It is not a column when the move begins, and the head element is wheeling as it is advancing up to its full move. ???
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Does a column formed in one only step pay one more PIP for being "a group other than a column wheeling"?
Perhaps not as the original group is not actually wheeling. With a wheel the group shape must stay the same and it requires one corner to remain in place: neither happens in column formation.
It is not a column when the move begins, and the head element is wheeling as it is advancing up to its full move.
The logic here is bit twisted. If it's not a column then there can't be a "head element". If it has a "head element" it is a column.
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
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Ok. You convinced me ;D.
I think we finally got it. Just curiosity. Could we ask the Phil to include it in the next version of the rules? ;D
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I think we finally got it.
Yes I think so too. The only thing that's missing now is an answer to the question "how do you know whether column formation has involved a full move". I've raised this on the Yahoo! DBMMlist as well.
Could we ask the Phil to include it in the next version of the rules? ;D
I doubt it. You go ahead. ;)
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Blog article posted - http://vexillia.blogspot.com/2008/08/dbmm-for-befuddled-part-6.html
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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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The only thing that's missing now is an answer to the question "how do you know whether column formation has involved a full move". I've raised this on the Yahoo! DBMMlist as well.
Please, don't forget to include the answer in this forum! :P
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Um.....surely the answer is if the lead element moves the full distance allowed then it has made a full move - and if it hasn't then it hasn't?
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Um.....surely the answer is if the lead element moves the full distance allowed then it has made a full move - and if it hasn't then it hasn't?
This is how we're playing it so far.
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Um.....surely the answer is if the lead element moves the full distance allowed then it has made a full move - and if it hasn't then it hasn't?
Not as written. If you lead with an "internal" element then its move, full or otherwise, is not covered by the rules which only refer to the group's front corners and because an "internal" element forms neither corner.
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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Martin,
We forgot one case! An disheartened irregular group (other than lights, generals, etc.) turning 180? and wheeling less than its full move pays 4 pips. :).
Any idea of how could we put it in the grid? ;D
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We forgot one case! An disheartened irregular group (other than lights, generals, etc.) turning 180? and wheeling less than its full move pays 4 pips. :).
This isn't a case.
- Disheartened is command difficulty and not covered by difficult evolutions or irregular ineptness so it's "outside scope"
- Player's will have to add 1 pip for moving disheartened troops be they regular or irregluar as they will for lots of other situations.
The grid only really works for the two main categories d & e. There's also sections a, b, c & f!
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Um.....surely the answer is if the lead element moves the full distance allowed then it has made a full move - and if it hasn't then it hasn't?
Not as written. If you lead with an "internal" element then its move, full or otherwise, is not covered by the rules which only refer to the group's front corners and because an "internal" element forms neither corner.
I dont' follow - the groups front corners are the corners of the front of the group - the leading rank of formation forming column is 1 element wide - and its corners are the groups front corners. Where the element started within the previous formation does not matter.
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the leading rank of [a] formation forming column is 1 element wide and its corners are the groups front corners.
I can't find the concept of a "leading rank" or the construct that a group's front corners morph from those visible on the table immediately prior to column formation anywhere in the rules so this doesn't stack up.
All I can find is a reference to a group's front corners which, in the absence of text to the contrary, are those visible at the start of the group move.
I think your earlier point "if the lead element moves the full distance allowed then it has made a full move" is actually the way to go but unfortunately I don't see this in the rules either.
If I've missed anything in the rules please point it out and put me out of my misery ;-)
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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there dosn't need to be a "concept" of a front rank - there just is one.
It's the element that is at the front.
If you want to play it the simple way then it's a pretty easy thing to do - you just do it.
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This isn't a case.
The grid only really works for the two main categories d & e. There's also sections a, b, c & f!
Sorry, Martin. I didn't explain myself. What I wanted to say is an irregular group other than lights (this is why I justified them as disheartened ;D) is making a 180? turn, wheeling and moving less. This costs 4 pips.
Sorry again ;)
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Sorry, Martin. I didn't explain myself. What I wanted to say is an irregular group other than lights (this is why I justified them as disheartened ;D) is making a 180? turn, wheeling and moving less. This costs 4 pips.
No problem.
Firstly irregular groups other than lights can't turn 180 - page 29 - they have to be disheartened to do so.
Secondly the pips are as follows:
- 1 for group move
- 1 for allowed (disheartened irregulars) 180 turn (difficult evolution)
- 0 for less than full move (difficult evolution) as specifically excluded
- 1 for irregular ineptness
In most circumstances that will be it. A 4th pip would only be required if the180 turn took the disheartened towards the enemy (command difficulty).
--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Firstly irregular groups other than lights can't turn 180 - page 29 - they have to be disheartened to do so.
Not quite. Irregular groups of Cv can turn 180 degrees. This includes Cv(S) and Cv(I) in contrast to the Irregular Ineptness section in PIPs which specifies Cv(O)
Niall
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Firstly irregular groups other than lights can't turn 180 - page 29 - they have to be disheartened to do so.
Not quite. Irregular groups of Cv can turn 180 degrees. This includes Cv(S) and Cv(I) in contrast to the Irregular Ineptness section in PIPs which specifies Cv(O)
Niall
Quite right.
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Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/
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Secondly the pips are as follows:
- 1 for group move
- 1 for allowed (disheartened irregulars) 180 turn (difficult evolution)
- 0 for less than full move (difficult evolution) as specifically excluded
- 1 for irregular ineptness
In most circumstances that will be it. A 4th pip would only be required if the180 turn took the disheartened towards the enemy (command difficulty).
You're right again :o. I think I have a problem with 180? turns ;D
Thank you very much
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And dont forget that 2 ME elements dont become disheartened, and therefore if irregular and dont meet the qualifiers, they cannot turn 180! I got caught out by that rule with my Gepids, could not turn one of my Kn(F) command's to face to the rear even though part of the command, the Ps(O) archers, were disheartened.
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Well after two and a half months a clarification of sort has emerged. I posted this - http://tinyurl.com/6bmq7l - on the DBMMlist as part of a discussion of items that needed clarifying. Chris Handley, who was heavily involved in play testing the rules with Phil Barker, replied (see http://tinyurl.com/9la9pe)
"as neither of the groups front corners have moved their maximum distance [its covered by the rules]"
So this moves costs 2 PIPs for regular troops and 3 for irregulars.
I think this is going to have a big impact as, judging by the comments, there are a lot of people who don't pay the extra PIP.
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Hi Martin,
Thanks for your work.
I find this interpretation is very very silly and impossible to explain to any beginner.
If three regular elements in a line create a column behind either of the edge elements, it costs one PIP, but if you use the centre element is costs 2 PIPs.
This comes about by interpreting the corners of the group meaning the initial formation and not the final formation. (The corners of the head of the column have made a full move, whichever element advances).
IMHO it is this sort of over complicated hair splitting that gives DBMM a bad press when compared to competitors.
Very unhappy and planning on ignoring this interpetation,
neil fox (a big DBMM fan).
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Hi Martin,
Thanks for your work.
And work it was.
I find this interpretation is very very silly and impossible to explain to any beginner.
It could have been simpler.
Perhaps you tell the beginner it costs more as some troops are moving left whilst other right and they get in a right mess when they meet in the middle. :)
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Hi Martin,
Thanks for your work.
I find this interpretation is very very silly and impossible to explain to any beginner.
If three regular elements in a line create a column behind either of the edge elements, it costs one PIP, but if you use the centre element is costs 2 PIPs.
This comes about by interpreting the corners of the group meaning the initial formation and not the final formation. (The corners of the head of the column have made a full move, whichever element advances).
IMHO it is this sort of over complicated hair splitting that gives DBMM a bad press when compared to competitors.
Very unhappy and planning on ignoring this interpetation,
neil fox (a big DBMM fan).
Totally agree with above statement, is this an official pronouncement from Mr Barker or from Chris.
I will also ignore this until offical proscription is made
William
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Ditto.
When you meaure how far the front corners have moved it must be after the move - otherwise how can yuo neasure how far they have moved?
so it is the post-move corners that matter - end of story as far as I'm concerned.
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Hi
My son Thomas just pointed out a very good reason why the idea of 2 PIPs for making regular columns makes no sense at all.
Start with 5 cavalry in a line.
The second cavalry from the left advances straight ahead 12cm / 240 p.
The cavalry on the far left stands still.
The 3rd to 5th cavalry fall in in column behind.
The fifth cavalry, who started on the far right, has moved 12cm (the full move).
So under some circumstances it is possible to build a column behind a middle element and for one of the edge elements to have moved full distance.
This makes the whole idea of regular troops paying 2 Pips to make a column into a joke.
It becomes impossibly complicated.
Regular troops pay only 1 PIP to make a column and Basta.
neil fox
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Hi Neil
I don't see the example you provided as being 'unusual' because what you have done is pulled forward into a column with one of the elements on the flank of the formation. I understand you left element A behind but given he is not going into the column (and cannot*) you haven't actually provided a situation where you form a column behind an element other than one of the flank elements.
* Element A cannot join the tail of the column (per your scenario) if you read through the group movement rules (nearest elements fall in behind), so is not a part of the column.
Another (absurd?) scenario is 2 elements of Cav side by side, and you wish to pull into a column at say a 20 degree angle to your front left. If you lead with the left element then the group move has gone short (both outsides corners move less than 240 paces), but if you lead with the right element then it hasn't.
Andrew
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Hi
My son Thomas just pointed out a very good reason why the idea of 2 PIPs for making regular columns makes no sense at all.
Start with 5 cavalry in a line.
The second cavalry from the left advances straight ahead 12cm / 240 p.
The cavalry on the far left stands still.
The 3rd to 5th cavalry fall in in column behind.
The fifth cavalry, who started on the far right, has moved 12cm (the full move).
So under some circumstances it is possible to build a column behind a middle element and for one of the edge elements to have moved full distance.
This makes the whole idea of regular troops paying 2 Pips to make a column into a joke.
It becomes impossibly complicated.
Regular troops pay only 1 PIP to make a column and Basta.
neil fox
Regular troops already pay only 1 pip to move into column.
They pay an extra pip for short moving both front corners.
The problem comes if you measure the distance moved by the initial front corners of the group. Then some column formations pay an extra pip and others don't, depending on which elements go where in the column and how far forward it moves. Various examples have been brought forward on this forum and the yahoo group.
The problem vanishes if you measure the distance moved by the final front corners of the group. Then everything is simple.