DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: andrew on June 01, 2009, 04:34:58 AM
-
Hi
(http://www.accessdata.co.nz/images/combat2.bmp)
We had another situation come up in a game yesterday. It is the green players bound, the green element numbered 2 has just killed a blue element and compulsorily followed up, and in so doing contacted blue element numbered 1. Both are single elements as depicted.
The question is when does blue element #1 turn to face green element #2? Is this after shooting in the blue players bound? Or can the blue player claim EMTLU during the combat phase?
Thanks
Andrew
-
IMHO, element 1 should line up immediately after element 2 contacted it. On page 33 is read that an EMTLU can be made "...in either side's bound...". But I'm afraid that the consensus is that this is not so. I don't know why, however. :-\
-
Hello Andrew,
I think that element 1 turns to face after shooting in the next bound, I think ( though am not sure { although playing as such } ) that this contact is the type that does not turn to face till that point, is already 'Lined up' ( though again not in keeping with the definition that Phil gave recently ) and is a legal contact so therefore can not use an EMTLU.
Even if it was not all those things I am interpreting ( rightly or wrongly ) that an EMTLUs as 'extra movement' occours in the movement phase so if it did have to 'line up' this would occour in the next movement phase. Whether this would allow 1 ( if it is 1's bound ) to move away from the contact ( as 1 itself is yet in frontal combat ) to move straight ahead to avoid contact I am not sure. I have thought that there should be a sequence within the movement phase, previously contacted line up, moves made, line up according to those moves etc.
But as Landmeister has posted it is a very contenious area, I think in games players should decide what happens in these situations before games start, in comps maybe the umpires may state how they would rule upon it.
;) William
-
Hi
Green bound:
Element 2 kills an element and pursing into Blues Element 1 s flank.
They cannot fight until the following bound.
Blue bound.
Blue Element 1 conforms for free during blues movement phase to fight Green element 2, i.e. before shooting.
The turn order is move-shoot-fight and the EMTLU is a move.
neil fox
-
But why blue must conform in its bound and not when it was contacted? The EMTLU can be used "...in any bound...".
-
But why blue must conform in its bound and not when it was contacted? The EMTLU can be used "...in any bound...".
;) Any bound yes, what time within the bound is the question.
William
-
Hi
Green bound:
Element 2 kills an element and pursing into Blues Element 1 s flank.
They cannot fight until the following bound.
Blue bound.
Blue Element 1 conforms for free during blues movement phase to fight Green element 2, i.e. before shooting.
The turn order is move-shoot-fight and the EMTLU is a move.
neil fox
No blue does not turn for free in the blue bound movement phase, it turns to face ( if still there ) after shooting in the blue bound as it has been legally contacted on the flank front corner to front corner and is therefore lined up and so can not EMTLU.
William ;)
-
IMO it turns immediately before the combat occurs - see "Turning to face", page 35.
the actual wording there is "turns before close combats" - so before any close combat. Theoretically I guess this could mean at any time prior to then, but we have found it conventient to do it immediately before & I think that is the intent.
This is in contrast to DBM, where single elements contacted by groups turned immediately on contact, but others turned jsut before close combat IIRC.
-
But why blue must conform in its bound and not when it was contacted? The EMTLU can be used "...in any bound...".
;) Any bound yes, what time within the bound is the question.
William
[it] When it is (any of) contacting, contacted or TZed. What's to question? Cheers, Ivan.
-
Hi
(http://www.accessdata.co.nz/images/combat2.bmp)
We had another situation come up in a game yesterday. It is the green players bound, the green element numbered 2 has just killed a blue element and compulsorily followed up, and in so doing contacted blue element numbered 1. Both are single elements as depicted.
The question is when does blue element #1 turn to face green element #2? Is this after shooting in the blue players bound? Or can the blue player claim EMTLU during the combat phase?
Thanks
Andrew
[it] By which you mean the Green player's close combat phase, immediately after the Green element's compulsory pursuit move contacted the Blue element? Another aspect to the geometry here is that the EMTLU is exactly 80p for the Blue element. I have seen numerous instances where EMTLU was not available because it was further than 80p to line up, eg TZed from the rear or obliquely or laterally offset from a flank. Cheers, Ivan.
-
Maybe I wasn't 100% clear - yes the choices were during the combat phase of Green's bound after the compulsory follow up, or during the blue players bound.........
Personally I see 2 options here. One is EMTLU, the other is 'turning to face'. Turning to face happens after movement and shooting (page 26 - 'sequence of play'), so under this rule the blue element would turn in the blue players bound after shooting. However, EMTLU happens instantly - and if I'm reading the rules correctly, the EMTLU rule doesn't specifically state the EMTLU only happens during the movement phase.
I'm pretty relaxed either way but there are implications for the combat in the following bound. Particularly if the blue player wishes to get rear support in the following bound (e.g. Pike).
Thanks everyone
Andrew
-
Hi
ok, as green is corrected lined up, then the EMTLU cannot be used.
Have not understood what difference this makes.
If blue wants to have rear support, he can move another element in behind element 1, then both will turn 90 degrees to conform before close combat.
Blue cannot be shot at before conforming, as blue is in close combat.
If green was not perfectly lined up then EMTLU could be used.
I would play it that, as it is greens pursuit move, green could choose line up immediately.
Assuming green chooses not to line up immediately, blues turn begins.
Blue could choose to use EMTLU to line up or decide not to, in which case green must line up and blue turns to face just before combat, again without being shot at.
neil
-
Hi
ok, as green is corrected lined up, then the EMTLU cannot be used.
[it] It is Blue, not Green, using EMTLU in this instance (although in the Green bound, immediately after Green's compulsory pursuit into contact with Blue). Blue is not lined up with the front or flank of Green therefore *can* use EMTLU IMO. Am I missing something pivotal?
-
Hi Neil
I'm not sure I agree. Green got to that position as a result of a compulsory follow up and the question is when does the blue element conform? Green cannot use EMTLU given any additional move into (what is essentially) another legal position would be more than 80 paces, and it is already 'lined up' isn't it? I gather lined up is not constrained to just front edge to front edge.
I don't believe blue can move an element into the rear support position as the elements currently stand per the image above because of the TZ rules, and the sequence of play is specifically Move > Shoot > Turn To Face > Combats.
So the choices were blue using EMTLU immediately on being contacted as a result of green's compulsory pursuit or 'turning to face'. Turning to face shouldn't be in dispute, this would be after shooting in blue's next bound (given the combat occurred in greens bound). So the question comes down whether the blue element could use EMTLU if it chooses to at the point in time it was contacted as part of the follow up.
The EMTLU rules state that EMTLU can only be used for elements "that are not lined up". Is the green element lined up with the blue element? If so, does that mean the blue element would be lined up with the green element by deduction? Or is "lined up" considered separately for each element? Furthermore, what does "lined up" actually mean? Insofar as I can see "lined up" isn't defined in the rules......
Andrew
-
Hi
P33 last para.
"line up with an enemy front, flank or rear edge".
As shown in the first diagram, green is therefore "lined up" (in a legal position with blues flank edge).
As green is lined up, neither side gets EMTLU.
What is to prevent an second blue element advancing straight ahead to touch the first blue elements rear edge? It would be moving directly ahead, which is legal in the TZ. The two elements could then turn 90 degrees to conform.
If green was, say, offset by 10mm, then EMTLU is possible I think my previous statement as to the order in who has what options is correct and it becomes even easier to get rear support. The second blue element would not even have to line up perfectly bend the first one. Both of them could habe EMTLU.
neil
-
What is to prevent an second blue element advancing straight ahead to touch the first blue elements rear edge? It would be moving directly ahead, which is legal in the TZ. The two elements could then turn 90 degrees to conform.
I'm afraid not. On page 33 is read that "A rear corner or rear edge cannot be moved into any enemy contact, or a flank edge into any contact except with a flank edge or if the front edge also moves into combat."
In your case, this second element is not moving its front into combat.
-
But why blue must conform in its bound and not when it was contacted? The EMTLU can be used "...in any bound...".
;) Any bound yes, what time within the bound is the question.
William
[it] When it is (any of) contacting, contacted or TZed. What's to question? Cheers, Ivan.
Hello Ivan,
Have had this conversation a few times already, now I am not saying that I am right but,
an EMTLU ' is extra to normal maximum move, and expends no extra PIPS' this to me implies that an EMTLU is carried out in the phase that covers 'normal' movement, EMTLUs to me should occour within this phase.
But there are other types and times of 'movements' that occour outside the 'movement phase', recoils, flees, pressing forward, pursues and repulses, of these 5 I think that only 2 Pursues and Pressing forward concern us ( I think others can not contact enemy), I have also left out turning to face as these seem not to require EMTLU ( mostly ;) ).
Pressing forward is a move ( it says so within the paragraph on Pg 40 ), but it also goes on to state in the paragraph, 'If it contacts enemy or friends it lines up', so it has provision for it's own emtlu, now we all probably realise that the good Phil does not waste any words in his rules set ( pity but true ) and would not have to include 'Enemy' it this was a situation covered by the main EMTLU.
Pursuing, in this the good Phil does not even use 'MOVE' on page 42, it is a pursue, further it does not go on to say anything about 'LINING UP' with enemies or friends as in the pressing forward section.
These are some of the reasons I think that all EMTLU's take place within the movement phase of the bound.
:) No I am ready to be wrong in this, also quite prepared to listen to any points as it is one of the more interesting rules issues ( though not my favorite ), I can also see why others would play it differently and is just my humble point of view.
;) William
-
What is to prevent an second blue element advancing straight ahead to touch the first blue elements rear edge? It would be moving directly ahead, which is legal in the TZ. The two elements could then turn 90 degrees to conform.
I'm afraid not. On page 33 is read that "A rear corner or rear edge cannot be moved into any enemy contact, or a flank edge into any contact except with a flank edge or if the front edge also moves into combat."
In your case, this second element is not moving its front into combat.
I think that the blue element could spend a pip ( or more ) to get into conact with the green in it's own movement phase, then other blues could be bought in as rear support, optionally the blue element ( as is not in frontal combat ) may move straight ahead or striaght back out of 'combat'
William
-
What is to prevent an second blue element advancing straight ahead to touch the first blue elements rear edge? It would be moving directly ahead, which is legal in the TZ.
[it] Only as long as it doesn't contact enemy except front edge-to-front edge [BP 4, para 1, "Threat Zone", P32]. Sorry I'm a bit late on this - the constraint on contacting enemy with a flank or rear edge or corner has already been raised.
Cheers,
Ivan.
-
Hello Ivan,
Have had this conversation a few times already, now I am not saying that I am right but,
[/quote]
[it] Hi William
I'm uncertain about this too and, like you, have been reduced to interpolating the meaning from (i) similar or related passages in the rules and (ii) my understanding of English as she is spoke :D. I suspect we've reached, some time since, an impasse in respect of standardising the application of EMTLU. FWIW my current application of the rule on-table is that EMTLU *may* be used at any time at the *instant* it contacts, is contacted or is TZed. Salient questions from me are:
1. Is EMTLU complusory? (insofar as the passage says "moves", not "may move");
2. Are the conditions under which EMTLU is performed instantaneous or continuous? (ie must the player using EMTLU make a decision to line up at that point in time or revisit that decision at a later time if the condition still exists - ie still in contact or in an enemy TZ).
Kudos for laying out the rationale under which you surmise EMTLU occurs in the movement phase. I think the operant word that supports your view is "extra" as in "expends no extra PIPs" and you infer that PIPs must be spent to use EMTLU (... not trying to put words in your mouth ??? honest!). However that sentence begins "This can be in either side's bound" and one doesn't spend PIPs in the opponent's bound.
Cheers,
Ivan.
-
Hi
P33 last para.
"line up with an enemy front, flank or rear edge".
As shown in the first diagram, green is therefore "lined up" (in a legal position with blues flank edge).
As green is lined up, neither side gets EMTLU.
[it] Hi Neil,
Although not explicit in this passage, I've always inferred "line up" as relative to the "lining-up-element's" (sorry -can't immediately concoct a more elegant term) *front* edge. Why do you insist that if at least one element is lined up, neither can use EMTLU? I realise I'm repeating myself (apologies to all for the tedium), but I don't think Blue is "lined up" with Green (whereas the converse is true) therefore Blue *can* use EMTLU.
Cheers,
Ivan.
-
I don't think Blue is "lined up" with Green (whereas the converse is true) therefore Blue *can* use EMTLU.
Cheers,
Ivan.
This isn't how it works with combats. An element can be in front edge combat with the flank of an enemy element, and yet the enemy element does not meet the definition of being in combat (according to the wording of the rules) if it has nothing to its front. Rather, it is by deduction that both elements are deemed to be in combat and this is the general consensus of the community. Using the same logic, if one element is lined up, then by deduction is the other also lined up? Or is the comparison a load of old rubbish? :)
Andrew
-
Hello Ivan,
Have had this conversation a few times already, now I am not saying that I am right but,
[it] Hi William
I'm uncertain about this too and, like you, have been reduced to interpolating the meaning from (i) similar or related passages in the rules and (ii) my understanding of English as she is spoke :D. I suspect we've reached, some time since, an impasse in respect of standardising the application of EMTLU. FWIW my current application of the rule on-table is that EMTLU *may* be used at any time at the *instant* it contacts, is contacted or is TZed. Salient questions from me are:
1. Is EMTLU complusory? (insofar as the passage says "moves", not "may move");
2. Are the conditions under which EMTLU is performed instantaneous or continuous? (ie must the player using EMTLU make a decision to line up at that point in time or revisit that decision at a later time if the condition still exists - ie still in contact or in an enemy TZ).
Kudos for laying out the rationale under which you surmise EMTLU occurs in the movement phase. I think the operant word that supports your view is "extra" as in "expends no extra PIPs" and you infer that PIPs must be spent to use EMTLU (... not trying to put words in your mouth ??? honest!). However that sentence begins "This can be in either side's bound" and one doesn't spend PIPs in the opponent's bound.
Cheers,
Ivan.
[/quote]
Hello again Ivan, :)
First your points,
1. Is lining up compulsory, I have come to the belief that unless contact is involved lining up is not compulsory because of figure 9c on page 54, Blade Y although TZed has the chose to remain stationary ( TBF not all diagrams in the rules are considered correct ). An element can only contact in certian ways ( Lining up ) so I do feel if a move is into contact for it not to be rescinded there must be an EMTLU where necessary, even this though has issues with combat outcomes has been posted recently.
2. Is a bit more problematic, if lining up is not compulsory then when does a player make his choice, as you have already said this can happen in either bound. I have had a few long discussions about this ( I hope mostly on the YAHOO group so as not to bore people here :-[ ). If an element has a choice to line up at any stage this could result in some players selecting to EMTLU in the middle of an opponents move, this may impact movement restictions on the bounding players move. Very cheesy. That is why I take your point it might be better to happen instantaneously when elements are ' contacting, contacted or TZed ', ;) but the problem is the choice to line up and being able to do this at any time is where the real cheese could come in.
I came up with (but only as a guide line to myself) the following
Movement sub bound,
1.Any enemy units that are TZed or contacted ( except for elements that will turn to face ) may do so now.
2.The bounding player makes his/her moves and any resulting EMTLU's form each move as they happen, any enemy elements wishing to EMTLU as a result of any moves by the bounding player will complete them at the end of each move.
3.Repeat step 2 for any compulsory moves, ( have never figured out whether spontaneous or flee moves happen first :P ).
End of movement sub phase,
It does not fully work but is an idea and someone could make it work as a playing convention and would allow EMTLUs to happen in either bound.
Still I think the whole area might get clarified soon :o
;D I think the game is much better when one plays with the same interpretations, the thing is with a script like DBMM that might as easy as it sounds.
William
PS English is supposed to be my first language and I have found DBMM difficult to grasp, for those who play through a second language deserve a lot of admiration and respect.
-
Hi
P33 last para.
"line up with an enemy front, flank or rear edge".
As shown in the first diagram, green is therefore "lined up" (in a legal position with blues flank edge).
As green is lined up, neither side gets EMTLU.
What is to prevent an second blue element advancing straight ahead to touch the first blue elements rear edge? It would be moving directly ahead, which is legal in the TZ. The two elements could then turn 90 degrees to conform.
If green was, say, offset by 10mm, then EMTLU is possible I think my previous statement as to the order in who has what options is correct and it becomes even easier to get rear support. The second blue element would not even have to line up perfectly bend the first one. Both of them could habe EMTLU.
neil
The "Move straight ahead" in a TZ is subject to additional constraints, which would be violated in this case. However, moving into rear support in a TZ is allowed as a separate bullet point.
-
The "Move straight ahead" in a TZ is subject to additional constraints, which would be violated in this case. However, moving into rear support in a TZ is allowed as a separate bullet point.
Page 33 : "A rear corner or rear edge cannot be moved into any enemy contact, or a flank edge into any contact except with a flank edge or if the front edge also moves into combat." And the TZ rule from page 32 : "move into rear support behind friends at least partly directly in front."
Do these contradict eachother? Or does the any part of the movement rule over-rule the TZ exemption?
-
The "Move straight ahead" in a TZ is subject to additional constraints, which would be violated in this case. However, moving into rear support in a TZ is allowed as a separate bullet point.
Page 33 : "A rear corner or rear edge cannot be moved into any enemy contact, or a flank edge into any contact except with a flank edge or if the front edge also moves into combat." And the TZ rule from page 32 : "move into rear support behind friends at least partly directly in front."
Do these contradict eachother? Or does the any part of the movement rule over-rule the TZ exemption?
They don't contradict. The TZ rule bans all moves in the TZ except for those listed, it does not make illegal moves legal just because they are on the list. The edge contact rule bans certain contacts.
In this case, the edge contact rule would make moving into rear support illegal if the front element has not yet turned to face. This assumes that moving into rear support is not moving into combat, which seems to be true as rear support is not listed in the section on moving into combat.
-
In this case, the edge contact rule would make moving into rear support illegal if the front element has not yet turned to face.
Agree.
What's your opinion on the original question? When do you think the blue element turns into frontal combat with the green element that followed up in the green elements bound? The on-table situation is pretty much as drawn; the blue element is not in front edge combat. Can you see the image per the first post ok?
-
In this case, the edge contact rule would make moving into rear support illegal if the front element has not yet turned to face.
Agree.
What's your opinion on the original question? When do you think the blue element turns into frontal combat with the green element that followed up in the green elements bound? The on-table situation is pretty much as drawn; the blue element is not in front edge combat. Can you see the image per the first post ok?
It can't use an EMTLU as it is already lined up.
It can use PIPs in its next move to turn to face, or indeed make any move permitted in a TZ to an element that is in close combat. If it doesn't use PIPs then it will automatically turn to face at the start of the next close combat phase.
-
It can't use an EMTLU as it is already lined up.
[it] Hi Lawrence and Neil, you're both insistent regarding the mutuality of being "lined up". I think this is moot and further complicated by the absence of a definition for "lined up" within the rules (though if I've missed it please direct me). AJF contibuted from an earlier thread regarding the commonly accepted mutuality of being "in close combat" but this is also an inference rather than explicitly stated. Thinking it through some more over the weekend I was about ready to agree with you both on the basis that if an element could (or must) use EMTLU in the scenario posited, what would be the point of the "turning to face" rules. Then I recalled the earlier discussion about being in close combat but not front edge contact and noted the pivotal aspect to that discussion was turning to face being delayed until after shooting whereas in DBM 3.1 and earlier this happened immediately after movement. The reason for this, as best I can determine, is that pressing forward in DBMM is an outcome of shooting rather than, as in the earlier rules, an option following close combat. Parenthetically I have seen the on-table effects: an element out of contact pressing forward into contact thereby making the element it contacted ineligible as a shooting target among others. So, I think EMTLU is a powerful concept for speeding up getting into close combat but difficult to apply with any certainty. Like William, I'll wait for something more concrete to emerge and add this to a list of nebulous definitions to be agreed before playing new opponents. Thanks for indulging me. I'll sign off on this topic.
Cheers,
Ivan.
-
I think this is moot and further complicated by the absence of a definition for "lined up" within the rules (though if I've missed it please direct me).
No you haven't missed it. There is no definition for "lined up", which puts this debate at an impasse......
-
I think this is moot and further complicated by the absence of a definition for "lined up" within the rules (though if I've missed it please direct me).
No you haven't missed it. There is no definition for "lined up", which puts this debate at an impasse......
Phil did come out with a definition on the YAHOO group ( when pressed ), can not find it and IIRC it does not take in to account the lining up as this example or to the rear.
William ;)
-
DBMM List Msg 88856
Lining up in contact is shorthand for ending in both front edge and corner to
corner contact.
Lining up out of contact is shuffling sideways so you can in future move
straight ahead into contact without further adjustment.
The term has been used since before DBA, so it is a little late to start
misunderstanding it!
Phil
-
DBMM List Msg 88856
Lining up in contact is shorthand for ending in both front edge and corner to
corner contact.
Lining up out of contact is shuffling sideways so you can in future move
straight ahead into contact without further adjustment.
The term has been used since before DBA, so it is a little late to start
misunderstanding it!
Phil
Under that definition an element contacted on its flank is not lined up, so can use an EMTLU, unless, of course, it is already lined up with something else.
-
DBMM List Msg 88856
Lining up in contact is shorthand for ending in both front edge and corner to
corner contact.
Lining up out of contact is shuffling sideways so you can in future move
straight ahead into contact without further adjustment.
The term has been used since before DBA, so it is a little late to start
misunderstanding it!
Phil
Under that definition an element contacted on its flank is not lined up, so can use an EMTLU, unless, of course, it is already lined up with something else.
:oThere are a few more issues involving elements theat are TZed to flank and rear as well, the definition has not yet become part of the rules, clarificatons, commentary or errata.
William
-
The definition of lining up needs to be expanded to include rotation as well as "shuffling sideways" and also to cover all and only legal close combat contacts.
I suggest that
"Lined up" be defined as :
if in contact, in both front edge and front corner to front corner contact, or in both front edge to rear edge and corner to corner contact;
if not in contact, positioned so that a hypothetical move straight ahead to contact would end lined up in contact.
Then "lining up" is any move that ends with the element lined up.
That should cover all cases of being TZed from flank or rear and all orientations of the element you are lined up with.