Question about sponnos

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi Mike

>But I don't think it is confusing if people read what is actually there.
Ah well and here is crux of problem with corner to corner contact for me, ie its not actually in the rules only mentioned in a forum discussion contribution from Phil and included in the Commentary. 

>A lot of the "problems" with DBMM IMO come down to people not wanting to believe the rules - they've done >things some other way (either in other rules or due to mis-reading) and would rather keep doign it that way.
Partly I agree (very hard intially to leave 15yrs of DBM behind) but the rules could have more clarity on several issues. Take for instance the long debate re 'dog-leg' moves; I still believe the rules as written dont allow them (except in 'formation change' type specific instances) but players allow(want) them as a legacy from DBM and again it required a clarification from Phil to prove to me (at least) that his 'intent' was to allow them dispite actual wording of rules and diagramatic example (ie Fig 1).

Question ref corner to corner stuff

I have line of 2 elements (A & B) that impact a line of 3 elements X,Y & Z :

A B
X Y Z

B destroys Y but does not pursue leaving :

A B
X - Z

what happens now in X & Zs move ? is Z contacted as 'in contact' and therefore is 'compelled' to line up with B ?

As a further query if Z is a sponno element what can/does it do ?

Cheers
Gary

[MikeCampbell]

As I read it you have the option of sliding Z across to the front of B, or pivoting onto its flank.

all for 0 PIPs.

If impetuous you have the same options - you cannot make any spontaneous move because you are in contact and that ends your spono move.

Edit:  It's been pointed out already that you cannot swing onto a flank with an 80p move - the geometry doesn't allow it (ie any pivot onto a flank from a position where the front ranks are aligned takes more than 80p)

This applies to both impetuous and non-impetuous elements IMO - since any impetuous move ends when you contact enemy - and yuo already start in such contact so there is no move to be made.

So to swing onto a flank from this position you must spend PIPs.

[Marcel Bos]

Hi Mike,

As I read it you have the option of sliding Z across to the front of B, or pivoting onto its flank.
all for 0 PIPs.

I am in doubt. Z is not contacting or contacted or TZ-ed this bound but already 'in contact'.
Maybe this is the reason why elements can't shift sideways without spending PIP's to the next enemy when they have destroyed there own in front of them.

If impetuous you have the same options - you cannot make any spontaneous move because you are in contact and that ends your spono move.

How about pivoting around the point of contact?

But I don't think it is confusing if people read what is actually there.

I always try. 
But sometimes by reading it to carefully you can't play anymore.
For example: "A spontanious move ends when it contacts friends it cannot pass trough." Wb can never pass through Wb, right? So a group of Wb can never go spontanious! Just rubbish! It means of course friends which the spontanious element has to pass through, according to the direction it moves, but can't.
Sometimes you have to read between the lines.

So I still have hope that you were right Mike earlier in this discussion and that B had to contact Y in the original question from Landmeister.   

Marcel

[landmeister]

As for the suggestion that breakthroughs cannot now be made because corner-to-corner contact means you have to line up........there's alsways the option to spend PIPs to move through the gap!!

Remember this thread is only talking about spontaneous advances - and one of the things that has happened with these is that they are much more limted than they used to be - if you dont' spend PIPs on yuor impetuous troops then there's only a handful of options that can happen - so yes, if yuo dont' spend PIPs to move through a gap in the enemy line your troops will possibly not do it with spontaneous advances.

But isn't is "immediate"? I mean that you can't finish your bound in a corner to corner contact only, even after destroying your opponent. Remember that: "A contacting, contacted od Tzed element must line up...". No matter if you moved there this bound or just were there from a previous one, you are contacting or contacted, so you must line up now (i.e. immediatly after you are contacted or having contacted).

[landmeister]

IMO it is compulsory - the wording is:

""...element or group that is not lined up moves up to..."

Note that it "moves" - not that it "can move" or "is allowed to move" - the wording is prescriptive - ie it tells you what you do, not what your options are.

I agree. This is way it must be an immediate action, because you do it when conditions are met (contacting, contacted or TZed), not before or after. 

[landmeister]

As I read it you have the option of sliding Z across to the front of B, or pivoting onto its flank.

all for 0 PIPs.

I disagree. You cannot pivot onto the flank for 0 PIPs for the reason specified below.

If impetuous you have the same options - you cannot make any spontaneous move because you are in contact and that ends your spono move.

I disagree again for the same reason. The 80 p free move is limited to a front to front move only in this case, but I agree that there's is no sponno move in this situation because the element is in contact. Rules anr not ambiguous in this situation...at all thanks God! 

Edit:  It's been pointed out already that you cannot swing onto a flank with an 80p move - the geometry doesn't allow it (ie any pivot onto a flank from a position where the front ranks are aligned takes more than 80p)

Yes. Maths almost never lie 

This applies to both impetuous and non-impetuous elements IMO - since any impetuous move ends when you contact enemy - and yuo already start in such contact so there is no move to be made.

Yes. There's no distinction. All 80 p free move restrictions are equally applicable to spontaneous and not spontaneous moves.

So to swing onto a flank from this position you must spend PIPs.

I agree again.

[landmeister]

I am in doubt. Z is not contacting or contacted or TZ-ed this bound but already 'in contact'.
Maybe this is the reason why elements can't shift sideways without spending PIP's to the next enemy when they have destroyed there own in front of them.

I think this is the key of this it all! When must be the conditions for a free move met? IMO If you have contacted the corner this bound, it is applicable this bound, even if you have destroyed your frontal opponent. But then this means that every time your opponent recoils you must move to the next front-to-front contact and so losing every ovelap!!

How about pivoting around the point of contact?

You can certainly pivot, but not with a 80 p free move. You must spend PIps or let it sponno.

I always try. 
But sometimes by reading it to carefully you can't play anymore.

I think you are right, Marcel. But remember that Barkerese is designed to be read literally!! :'(

For example: "A spontanious move ends when it contacts friends it cannot pass trough." Wb can never pass through Wb, right? So a group of Wb can never go spontanious! Just rubbish! It means of course friends which the spontanious element has to pass through, according to the direction it moves, but can't.

This is not exact. Wb can't pass through previously moved friendly Wb, so yes, they can pass thorugh sponno if you don't move them! 

So I still have hope that you were right Mike earlier in this discussion and that B had to contact Y in the original question from Landmeister.   

I think that I will ignore the will of the Phil included in the Commentary until it is specifically included in the rules. 

[MikeCampbell]

But isn't is "immediate"? I mean that you can't finish your bound in a corner to corner contact only, even after destroying your opponent. Remember that: "A contacting, contacted od Tzed element must line up...". No matter if you moved there this bound or just were there from a previous one, you are contacting or contacted, so you must line up now (i.e. immediatly after you are contacted or having contacted).

I don't think it is regardless of the stage of the bound.

It is part of movement, not part of combat and comes under part 2 of hte sequence on page 26.

Part 3 & 4 of the sequence are combat and outcome moves, and this is not an outcome move.

[landmeister]

Mike,

I saw your question in the Yahoo DBMM list. What's the consensus there so far? I can't follow all responses. 

[MikeCampbell]

Neither can I!!

Dunno - for some people it seems to be "yeah...fine..no problem", others have problems with it....

[landmeister]

Could somenone try a direct contact to The Source? I've sent several emails to Phil but he simply ignores them or just can't get through his spam filters