Late Hoplite Greek vs Early Persian

[madmike1]

Battle Report DBMM 580pt per side
Early Achaemenid Persian vs Later Greek Hoplite (Spartan)


Battle Field
Battle was joined at 9am with the wind against the Persians.  The first terrain placed was a stream running the full length of the board about a 1/3 of the way in from the Spartan base line.  All other terrain was placed on the Spartan side of the river, namely a hill in the centre, a vineyard on the right and a rough ground on the left.  Basically the idea ground for a Spartan heavy foot army to defend against a Persian cavalry army and as it turned out the terrain was to have no impact on the game. 

The Troops (As viewed from the Spartan side)
Persian:
Left wing Command
Sub General
6 horde (levy archers)
6 Sparabara (double based bow/spear unit)
5 Persian cav
8 Bactrian Superior quality light horse
8 Pisadians superior foot skirmishers 
2 Skthian Bow

Centre
CinC Xerxes golden chariot
6 Immortals (double based superior bow/spear)
2 Guard Cav
1 CyrusWar Tower (5 story high archer tower pulled by oxen)
4 Scythed chariots
8 horde (levy archers)
3 Skythian Bow
6 Lydian Hoplites inferior Spear
4 Bedoiun Camelry

Right Wing
Sub General
6 horde (levy archers)
6 Sparabara (double based bow/spear unit)
8 Skythian horse archers
5 Thracian Auxiliaries
5 Persian Cav 
2 Skthian Bow

Greek
Left Wing
Athenian Ally Commander
1 Superior cav
9 Peltasts
7 inferior javlinmen
6 Greek heavy cav
10 ordinary irregular Athenian Hoplites

Centre
Spartan C-in-C
20 Spartan superior regular hoplites
10 Spartan allied ordinary regular hoplites
14  inferior javlinmen

Right wing
Spartan sub general
24 Spartan allied ordinary regular hoplites
6 inferior slingers
2 inferior javlinment
4 ordinary peltasts

Deployment
Persians
5 main lines of troops,
1st line spread out were the Skythian Bow
2nd line the levy archers
3rd line on both wings the Sparabara, the centre had the Scythed chariots
4th line in the centre the Immortals
5th line in the centre was Xerxes golden chariot, archer tower, guard cav and the Lydian Hoplites inferior Spear

Spartan
 1st rank Javlinmen
2nd ? 4th rank Hoplites
Far left ? all the cavalry
Left and right wings of hoplites supporting Peltasts

Baggage for both armies was directly behind the centre line

Initial Look (15mm troops)
 The Persians were fresh out of the packing box as they had just arrived from China the day before having been professionally painted.  Gee they looked good. 

The Greeks were also fielding an army for the first time having been painted up over the last couple of months.  Shields were from Little Big Men, apart from the Spartans (who were dressed in a mix of white/bronze armour and red cloak) all the hoplites had been give individual coloured armour and cloaks (looked like a rainbow).   

Any possible argument for allowing unpainted troops on the field in future battles was banished forever.  Even my earlier painted troops from 20 yrs ago have been demoted to pure training troops for my kids to learn the game on.   

Battle
Opening Stages
Initially the Spartans refused to cross the stream for the first 3 turns due to the worry about unprotected flanks open to the superior Persian cav.  The Persians slowly advanced in the centre while pushing both of their wings forward. With the terrain so much in favour of the Greek and Spartan defenders, the plan was to pepper their lines with volleys of arrows to encourage them from their position. As it turnded out, this was unnecessary, with the defenders venturing out.

On turn 4 the Spartan rolled high PIPS for all commands and took the opportunity to march move across the stream.  The plan was to advance with the strong elite Spartan forces in the centre command while the left and right wings held back to restrict the Persians ability to outflank.    The low quality Greek javelin men engaged the enemy until the Hoplites could safely cross over the stream.  These units were engaged by the
Massed Levy Archers of the Persians with the intention of sweeping them from the field before unleashing the scythed chariots against the Spartan centre.

The Persian superior light infantry, levy troops and cavalry made short work of the javelin men.

The first Hoplite rank crushed the Persian levy troops apart from a couple of exceptions (where the levy recoiled the Spartans) and one embarrassing moment when a levy killed a Spartan. 

Next the Persian unleased hell in the form of 4 scythed chariots against the Spartan centre.  The end result was 4 Spartans lost before the scythed chariots were despatched. 

So far the Spartan centre was still pushing forward with only the Immortal Guards left to be dealt with.  Xerxes stood behind the Guard, exorting them to great valour, also the archer tower began firing over the heads of the Immortals into the Spartans with mixed results.   

With the main force of Spartans in the centre advancing both Greek wings commenced a slower advance to restrict the Persian cav. 

On the right wing the Spartan allied Hoplites had a hard time of it with having to deal with Persian attempts to push around their flanks.  Although they continued to slowly push back the opposing Persian foot troops.  The Peltasts sacrificed themselves to tie up the Persian cav forces. 

The Athenians on the left enjoyed greater success, the Persian light and levy troops were rapidly overcome.  The powerful Persian heavy cav moved to block the Athenian horse but were overwhelmed and destroyed almost immediately. 

Middle Stage
The Spartan right wing continued to press forward while splitting off the far right flank hoplites to face off against Persian cav.   Losses on both sides remained light. 

In the centre the elite Spartan infantry charged into the Immortals confident of a quick victory.  Unfortunately the Immortals stood like a rock and repelled every Spartan attack.  Losses mounted steadily amongst the elite Hoplites.

The left wing was the upset encounter of the game, apart from some javelin men lost in the opening stages of the game the Athenians, against all odds, continued to slay any Persian brave enough to oppose them.  The numerous encounters had fractured the order of the Athenian hoplites, being irregular ordinary hoplites all control was lost with the major advancing spontaneously. 

Late Stage
Right wing continued the steady grind with small losses amongst the hoplites, the Persian line started to fall apart.

The centre degenerated into a wood chipper with elite Spartans unable to damage the Immortals.  Most of the front rank of Hoplites was lost, the second rank was coming apart and in places the third rank of Hoplites had also fallen.  Unfortunately the worst losses were in front of the Spartan C-in-C who also soon fell to the Immortal death dealing machine.  At this stage the Spartan centre broke and commenced routing. 

The Athenians luck continued to hold, their Persian opposition was either dead or had fled the battlefield.   The Athenian hoplites moving spontaneously as small groups of one or 2 elements started to eliminate Persians from the central command. 

Final Actions
With the Athenians looting the Persian baggage the Persian centre finally broke, the Persian on the right having broken a turn or 2 earlier.  The Spartans elite hoplites didn?t stop running until they were back in Sparta having rid themselves of their weapons and armour to run faster.  The Athenians, hailed as the heroes of Greece, feasted on Persian food and enriching themselves with Xerxes crown jewels. 

Most of the Persians foot died under the Hoplites? spear, their cav having fled, the exception were the Immortals, each killing an average each of 3 Spartans.  The Immortals marched off the field in formation, heads held high escorting their King.   Not a single Immortal had been lost during the battle, Xerxes left the field threatening to reinvade Greece again but next time with the number of Immortals allowed under the army list ?maxed out?. 

DBMM Rules
Generally the game worked well with the following observations:
1.   The rule that irregular Greek Hoplites are spontaneous seems strange.  This means they break ranks unless controlled which seems against everything I have ever read about the importance in Greek warfare of staying in a line.
2.   The archer tower was 8 cm long, the normal full move of a hoplite.  At one stage a hoplite had recoiled the tower several turns in a row.  In this scenario it would have been more logical for the tower to have been destroyed.
3.   No formal units means that the hoplite line were able to peel off the flank hoplites element as required to face off against out flanking cav. 
4.   Double based bow/spear units are very good.  I would rank them superior to 2 ranks of hoplite in that the second rank of bow provide rear support. 
5.   Bow units by themselves have been found to be almost useless unless double based with spear.
6.   Levy troops (Horde O) were surprisingly useful and well priced at 1pt.  Although the cost for losing them is set to too high at equal to an Athenian Hoplite.       
7.   Spartan Spear at 7pts vs Irreg Spear at 4pts.  For my money I think the 4pt unit is better value, also the loss of a Spartan counts the same as the loss of 4 normal spear units.
8.   Don?t use the ?averaging?, PIP dice option, the Persians did and I believe this contributed to their loss.       
 
 

[toby]

Are Irregular Sp(O) really only 0.5 ME? Blimey - I thought it was only Sp(I).

[Barritus]

Battle Report DBMM 580pt per side
Early Achaemenid Persian vs Later Greek Hoplite (Spartan)

{snip}

Deployment
Persians
5 main lines of troops,
1st line spread out were the Skythian Bow
2nd line the levy archers
3rd line on both wings the Sparabara, the centre had the Scythed chariots
4th line in the centre the Immortals
5th line in the centre was Xerxes golden chariot, archer tower, guard cav and the Lydian Hoplites inferior Spear

Hmmm. In future, I'd recommend the Horde go in the rear. They're never intended as fightin' troops.

{snip}

DBMM Rules
Generally the game worked well with the following observations:
1.   The rule that irregular Greek Hoplites are spontaneous seems strange.  This means they break ranks unless controlled which seems against everything I have ever read about the importance in Greek warfare of staying in a line.

It's an interesting one, but I think the justification is that while staying in line was important, sometimes hoplites got a bit excited and forgot their training.

2.   The archer tower was 8 cm long, the normal full move of a hoplite.  At one stage a hoplite had recoiled the tower several turns in a row.  In this scenario it would have been more logical for the tower to have been destroyed.

I think you got the rules wrong here. War Wagons don't recoil, unless they're (S) in close combat with troops behind PF (that is, an attack against a fortification). Therefore, if they don't recoil, they just stand there. You have to double the WWg to destroy it, or use one of the troop types which provides for a quick kill.

Also, just for the record, I take it from your mention of the 8cm deep base that this was the distance you recoiled the WWg. Regardless of its base depth, no element recoils more than 4cm (Recoiling elements, p40).

3.   No formal units means that the hoplite line were able to peel off the flank hoplites element as required to face off against out flanking cav.

The justification here is that the element is assumed to be the "...smallest sub-unit or body capable of independent action..." (Troop representation and depiction, p3). This is a concept which has carried through from DBA and DBM. It was radical when introduced back in the early 90s, and most of us got used to it pretty quickly. It can be a bit of a step for those who are used to having their troops grouped in fewer units. The key is not getting so carried away that your groups turn into a rabble of individual elements you lose control of. There can be times in games that the best thing to spend PIPs on is putting your troops back into groups.

4.   Double based bow/spear units are very good.  I would rank them superior to 2 ranks of hoplite in that the second rank of bow provide rear support. 

The rear rank of Bow only provide support in the enemy bound. But so, for that matter, do Spear. Therefore, in each turn of combat, the active troops would have a basic factor of 4, and their opponents would be 5. Also remember that if the Bw (X) are irregular, they fight as Sp (I). Together, these should have given the hoplites a slight edge in all the combats.

5.   Bow units by themselves have been found to be almost useless unless double based with spear.

Quite possibly. If you're talking about Bw (I), they probably need to be in 3 ranks or up a hill.

6.   Levy troops (Horde O) were surprisingly useful and well priced at 1pt.  Although the cost for losing them is set to too high at equal to an Athenian Hoplite.       

The hoplites are presumably Sp (O), in which case they're 1 Morale Equivalent each, to the Hordes' 0.5 ME each. The best place for Hordes is in the rear. The only other use for them is to send out individual Hd elements against impetuous troops in order to break up their lines.

7.   Spartan Spear at 7pts vs Irreg Spear at 4pts.  For my money I think the 4pt unit is better value, also the loss of a Spartan counts the same as the loss of 4 normal spear units.

As above. The Sp (S) are 2 ME each, making each worth only 2 Athenians, not 4.

8.   Don?t use the ?averaging?, PIP dice option, the Persians did and I believe this contributed to their loss.       

 
Agreed. Averaging all three dice will cost you an average of 1 PIP per turn (if my maths is right). If you can't come up with a better idea, average the two lower PIP dice only. Alternatively, redesign your army in such a way that one command will work with a low PIP dice.

[madmike1]

Thanks for the feed back.

I only restarted playing ancients have a break of 20 yrs, initially tried one game of DBM a few months ago and didn?t like it, since then I have only played DBMM which I think is much better. 

So far I have played about 10 games of DBMM, each game is getting faster as we get a better grip on the rules.  Main complaint is the writing style, when its 2am, 5 hrs into a 600 pt battle at times it seems the rules are more challenging than the cohort of Romans bearing down on the flank of my pikes.   

My opponent and I realise that we are most likely still getting many rules wrong, usually when we can?t understand the rules we go with what seems most reasonable at the time. 

We have rated the Persian Immortal regular Bw(X) in our game as Sp(O) as the Bw is superior.  Is this correct? 

The front rank of levy troops my opponent used was surprising effective as it chased off my Ps(I).  In turn my Spartan Sp(S) killed most of the levy (but at 1pt per Levy who cares), unfortunately directly behind the levy were 4 scythed chariots that in the Persian turn killed 4 Spartans.  The 8 MEs lost went a long way towards Persian victory in the centre. 

Thanks for the advice about Wag Wagons, makes a lot more sense than in our game of them recoiling 80mm around the board.  Also for the clarification of the ME cost for irr Sp (O). 

I have to say one of the best features of the game was the steady pushing back of the Persian infantry on the flanks.  Felt like a real battle, I was looking at trying some other rules but was put off as the set I looked at didn?t include the concept.       

Best thing about the encounter was that two very different armies, i.e. bow/horse vs spear, both felt that they had a good chance of winning.  I put this down to neither side having quick kill troops like warbands or blades.

[toby]

I think it works very well for a lot of the historical matchups, which is something I like about it. Even the ones with the quick-kills - Romans vs Gauls can be another see-saw battles where you feel both sides have a chance of winning, so long as the Romans use all their advantages.