Army Baggage losses

[LawrenceG]

I had thought that if army baggage were not in a train comand then it would not be part of any command (so no pip dice) but would deploy in the rectangle of one of the other commands.

But are you saying if it is not in a train command then it is part of a normal command? In which case does it join whichever command it depoys in, or does this need to be specified in the order of battle?
Does a command with army baggage get 0.5 ME for each because it contributed PLUS to  ME each that army baggage counts for its own command?

[MikeCampbell]

Army baggage counts 1/2 ME to each command that contributed to it or a general-less command it is part of - and that's all - so there is no double counting (page 42 Morale Equivalents)

AFAIK if army baggage is part of a command then it has to meet all the normal rules for elements of that command - it has to be in the deployment rectangle the same as anything else, and if you're providing OOB's for a competition then you would ahve to put it in the OOB along with everything else unless the organisers say otherwise.

IMO the "deploys in 1 of them" means it is part of one of them - see page 22 "Initial Deployment", 3rd para - "Army baggage (O) included in a command..." - the key word here being "included in" - which to me means it's just more elements of the command and is a clarification of what "deploys in" means - probably an unitentional one, but then I suspect the author didn't think that "deployed in" would be taken to mean what you guys think it means!

It is not relevant that Bg(I), (F) and (S) is not mentioned because this rule is saying how immobile baggage must be deployed - the otehrs can be deployed anywhere in the deployment rectangle.

[arvnranger]

AFAIK if army baggage is part of a command then it has to meet all the normal rules for elements of that command - it has to be in the deployment rectangle the same as anything else, and if you're providing OOB's for a competition then you would ahve to put it in the OOB along with everything else unless the organisers say otherwise.

IMO the "deploys in 1 of them" means it is part of one of them - see page 22 "Initial Deployment", 3rd para - "Army baggage (O) included in a command..." - the key word here being "included in" - which to me means it's just more elements of the command and is a clarification of what "deploys in" means - probably an unitentional one, but then I suspect the author didn't think that "deployed in" would be taken to mean what you guys think it means!

[it] P22 para 3 does *not* say this, Mike. You've added the word "army" to suit your argument, I suspect - it says "Any Baggage(O) ... ". What else have you got for me that indicates army baggage must be organised into a command, with or without a general? And btw I understand "deploys in" to mean that the baggage elements are placed during the deployment phase within the rectangle describing the orthoganal extents of the elements of the command that it deploys in.

Cheers,
Ivan.

[MikeCampbell]

oops - you're right - I misread "any" as army!!  Mea culpa!

AFAIK there is nothing specifically about baggage having to be in a command over and above any other troops having to be in a command.  DBMM says "An army is organised in to 1-4 commands..", etc - as far as I can see there is no provision for any troops to be outside that structure.

however I stand by my analysis of the wording for army baggage - it does not say that army baggage deploys in the rectangle of a command - it says that it deploys in the command itself.

[LawrenceG]

AFAIK there is nothing specifically about baggage having to be in a command over and above any other troops having to be in a command.  DBMM says "An army is organised in to 1-4 commands..", etc - as far as I can see there is no provision for any troops to be outside that structure.

That makes sense. I agree, you are right, army baggage must be in a command.

however I stand by my analysis of the wording for army baggage - it does not say that army baggage deploys in the rectangle of a command - it says that it deploys in the command itself.

Although I can see how you could get this from the words, I don't think that the army baggage can actually be part of a general's  command.. It says  "it deploys in one of them" and "them" refers to commands without baggage. If the army baggage is part of a general's command, it has to deploy as part of that command. But that command is not a command without baggage (it has the army baggage). This is a contradiction.

This implies that army baggage MUST be in a train command.

"it deploys in one of them" also applies to baggage in a train command. If it means they are part of the command they deploy in, then the train command is part of a general's command as well as being a separate, general-less command. This is another contradiction. So it can't mean they are part of the command in which they deploy.

On p 22 we have "...each command with a general must depoy inside a rectangle..." The army baggage train command does not have a general so this says nothing about where to deploy it. IMO "it deploys in one of them" resolves this and means "it deploys in one of their rectangles".

[MikeCampbell]

"Them" refers to the commands without command baggage - it has nothing to do with not having any baggage at all.

[LawrenceG]

"Them" refers to the commands without command baggage - it has nothing to do with not having any baggage at all.

OOps, yes, you are right, I misread that one.

OK, what about the other contradiction?

[MikeCampbell]

The "with a general" bit seems fair enough - a general-less command can deploy its troops anywhere - makes some sense - you can have baggage behind hte army, and potentially artillery in front.

However it is of no relevance to the bit about "deploys in 1 of them" because the command itself is "1 of them" - it is a non-allied command that lacks command baggage!

All in all I think this is angels on het head of a pin stuff - we are trying to tease a precise and exact meaning from wording which, alas, does not lend itself to that.

In lieu of such exact wording I'd have to take refuge in the bit about "the letter and spirit of the rules" - which is an out for any umpire to do whatever he can rationalise without causing too much outcry from players!  for me it is that baggage as its own command deploys in its own rectangle.  This is how people have been playing it here & it's simple, understandable, and at least reasonably realistic IMO.

[LawrenceG]

So the baggage rules can be clarified:

Command baggage is part of its general's command.

Army baggage must be part of a general's command which has no command baggage, or of a train command with no general. This must be designated in the order of battle.

If army baggage is part of a general's command it must be deployed in his rectangle.

Elements of a train command can be depoyed anywhere, regardless of rectangles. However, the relative position of the train command still needs to be specifed at stage 1 of deployment.

If army baggage is part of a general's command and that command is broken, the army baggage is lost and all commands that contributed to army baggage lose the relevant MEs. The army loses the sum of these MEs (i.e. counting towards army defeat).

If army baggage is in a train command, it is not lost when a contributing general's command is broken. The army only loses the MEs for actual elements in the broken command. When the train command is broken all army baggage is lost, all contributing commands lose the relevant MEs and the army loses the sum of these.

[landmeister]

Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. 

Thank you

[LawrenceG]

Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. 

Thank you

The rules allow you to do all sorts of things that give you no obvious tactical advantage.

I still have my doubts about Mike's interpretation - I think Phil would have said "must belong to" instead of "must deploy in" if he intended army baggage to belong to one of the contributing commands. If baggage belongs to a command then the deployment rules already tell us it deploys in that command. It is not often that Phil adds redundant wording.

However, Mike has no doubt and the additional possibility which that allows would not appear to offer any significant advantage, so there's not much point in arguing the case any further. 

[william]

Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. 

Thank you

  because it is then easier to move, especially away form that pesky flank march, get those camels into the dunes sir.

William

[MikeCampbell]

I've only used mobile baggage once IIRC, but others have done so more often, and it seems to me that that the "best" mobile baggage is actually an irregular command without a general.

Baggage in a general's command takes a lot of PIPs away from the "real" troops, whereas a train command gets its own PIPs.  A regular train command almost always gets teh low PIPs, so nrarely has enough, but an irregular one gets a range from 1-6 PIPs/turn, and is often able to make a couple of march moves per turn - and often doing that for a few turns is all that is required to get out of trouble.

Lawrence Phil has often left redundant or irrelevant wording in parts of the rules he hasn't paid too much attention to, or put a couple of extra words in that are probably not needed and have confused the issue for many - the ruels for impetuous columns are a good example of bad wording...and I'm sure you can come up with many others - the commentary is full of them

[arvnranger]

Just curious. What's the point in including Army Bge in a general's command? I see no tactical advantage on it. 

[it] Separating the irregular train from the regular train (WWg, Art) thereby giving the train command a regular PIP die.

[Valentinian Victor]

using mobile baggage with a Regular Inert C-in-C is also a nightmare if you give the train command the lowest pip dice as you often then end up with zero pip's with that command!