Attacked on the rear

[landmeister]

I read that an element contacted on the rear or on the rear and flank doesn't rurn to fight! 
Ok. I find it weird, but I accept it. The question is, does this element use its combat factors or what? And then how can it flee? 

Thank you

[DaveMather]

This is correct being struck in the rear (or chuffed as we refer to it) is considerably worse than in DBM - I suspect it wasn't much fun historically either.

An example will best illustrate

If my LH (O) is struck in the rear by your Cv (O) 

I do not turn - the combat is fought as norm

In this case its

LH 2 -1 for each flank overlapped and/or enemy element in front edge combat with a flank or rear edge.
and -1 If troops or terrain already in contact with its rear edge or rear corner would prevent any recoil.

LH finish on 0
Cv 3

Dice roll LH 1 Cv 1

Combat finishes
 
LH 1
Cv 4

Outcome LH destroyed 

Again but with Dice roll LH 3 Cv 1

LH 3
Cv 4

Outcome LH destroyed 

Again but with Dice roll LH 4 Cv 1

LH 4
Cv 4

Outcome LH turn to face Cv and will fight next bound at 2-3 assuming nothing else intervenes 
Again but with Dice roll LH 5 Cv 1

LH 5
Cv 4

Outcome LH turn to face Cv and will fight next bound at 2-3 assuming nothing else intervenes 

If additionally struck on flank as well then as above except the LH are a further -1 for the flank contact - If the LH win or draw the element on the flank will not recoil -

The only outcome of an element being "chuffed" is its dead or it turns round to fight another day

Its opponent is totally safe see Combat outcomes p 38 - the exceptions 2nd para down 

So an Elephant who is hit in the rear by a spear and then on the flank by a Psiloi

Combat El 4 -1-1-1 =1
Spear 4

Elephant rolls 6 Spear rolls 1
Elephant 7 Spear 5


This normally is bads news for the Spear and he would be destroyed by the Els QK but not in this case as the combat outcome is disregarded by the Spear and the Psiloi.

Again the Elephant simply turns and will fight the Spear next turn whilst flanked by the Psiloi

Key sections in the rules are Turning to face p35 -

what is the diff if the spear had marched into the rear ?
what if the spear and Psiloi had each hit the flank of the Elephant instead ?

Also be aware of where elements need to be in relation to each other to permit them to contact a flank or rear - there is a good diagram (Figure 15) at the back of the rules (and p33 Flank edge and Rear edge contact)

It is also different if the element is contacted front and rear

Trust this helps

 
Regards


David Mather

[loki223]

so if a stand is hit in the flank it can turn to fight but if its hit in the rear it cannot?

is this correct?

[DaveMather]

If an element is hit only in the flank then it will turn and fight

however

If an element is hit only in the rear it will not turn and will then fight disadvantaged as illustrated above
If it loses its dead - if it draws/wins it turns

Regards

David Mather

[landmeister]

Dear David,

Your a crack   . This forum is priceless thanks to people like you. Bravo! 

Thank you

[loki223]

i agree 

[landmeister]

I have a new case.

My element is contacted frontally and on a flank. Then I contact the flanker on its rear in my bound. I choose the order of combats so I decide the one on the flanker will be the first. Is it solved as a "normal" attack on the rear or not? I can't find this situation specified anywhere in the rules.

Thank you

[toby]

Yes - it is attacked on its rear, so is -2 (rear contact and unable to recoil). If it survives, it can turn to face, in which case it won't be an overlap on your other element.

[landmeister]

Ok. Thank you.

[Barritus]

If an element is hit only in the rear it will not turn and will then fight disadvantaged as illustrated above
If it loses its dead - if it draws/wins it turns

Regards

David Mather

There's an exception to this: if the contacting element made contact using march moves (allowed by para 2 on page 28), then the contacted element is allowed to turn (see para 5 on page 35). Presumably in such a case the troops in the contacted element noticed something happening behind them, and worked out quickly enough that turning around was a good idea...

[honk16]

If an element is hit only in the rear it will not turn and will then fight disadvantaged as illustrated above
If it loses its dead - if it draws/wins it turns

Regards

David Mather

other exeptions:
Expendables contacted on the rear simply die, no fight
Expendables contacted on the side do not turn, but fight with normal factor -1 for side contact, if they loose or draw, they die, if they win, the contacting Element recoils and the exp moves forward

Tilman

There's an exception to this: if the contacting element made contact using march moves (allowed by para 2 on page 28), then the contacted element is allowed to turn (see para 5 on page 35). Presumably in such a case the troops in the contacted element noticed something happening behind them, and worked out quickly enough that turning around was a good idea...

[landmeister]

What would happen under version 2.0 in this situation?

Element A must recoil due to shooting, so that contacts the front of an enemy element. None of them must conform, but they are already conformed because the opponent put his element (call it 1) ready for that situation. This combat would be solved next bound, but then the player controlling A moves element B to contact 1's rear in the same bound. We have two enemy elements being contacted on the rear simultaneously in the same bound. How would it be solved?

[LawrenceG]

What would happen under version 2.0 in this situation?

Element A must recoil due to shooting, so that contacts the front of an enemy element. None of them must conform, but they are already conformed because the opponent put his element (call it 1) ready for that situation. This combat would be solved next bound,

I would be inclined to resolve the combat this bound, not wait until next bound. THis is by analogy with an element that presses forward into contact after being shot at, which would resolve its close combat the same bound.

I note that strictly by the rules as worded, A has not initiated close combat (because it hasn't moved its front edge or front corner into contact) and nor has 1 (because it hasn't moved its front edge or front corner into contact). Therefore these elements do not fight each other. However, I don't believe that would be in the spirit of the rules (particularly the first sentence on p33)

but then the player controlling A moves element B to contact 1's rear in the same bound. We have two enemy elements being contacted on the rear simultaneously in the same bound. How would it be solved?

If this "queuing" situation did arise (unlikely, but not impossible) then neither element turns to face. If we assume that 1 is in close combat with the rear of A, then it resolves this combat. Both A and 1 would get the -2 for enemy in the rear and no recoil, and be quick-killed on a lower score.

If 1 kills A and B remains in contact then I think 1 would turn to face B, but the wording could be interpreted as meaning that 1 must fight a rear combat against B next bound and only turn if it survives this. "... cannot turn or move before it has fought the combat" - which combat?