Western Chou v Classical Indian to new lists (pic heavy)

[Geoff Pearson]

From Dave Ruddock's email from the Yahoo Groups DBMMlist
[DR]Played a game last night against Hindu Indian, ran by Geoff Pearson.

[GP] I had Classical Indian to the new unpublished book 2 lists
the army was:-
CinC Kn(S), 8 Kn(S), 1 Exp(O) +2 for Army baggage (22ME)
SG El(S), 5 EL(S), 2 Hd(O), 1 Cv(I) +2 for Army baggage (18ME)
AG EL(S), 5 El(S), 4 Hd(O), 1 Cv(I) (17ME)
Army baggage 2ME defended by a ditch

[GP] I was defending so set up first which was not a problem as I had no worries of any bad match ups with this army.

[DR] I was using Western Chou, which mainly consists of about 25 Kn (O)
chariots and a wodge of supported Pikemen.

It was a bit of a surprise facing an Indian army with no proper foot
of any description, but hey ho. I put down as much Woods as I could
and Geoff put down rough going. This basically ended up with one
flank pretty much covered in woods and the rest of the battlefield
fairly open.

Geoff deployed with a mass of Kn(S) in the centre, flanked on each
side by a wodge of Jumbos. I decided to send a small contingent of
knight to go around on an on-table flank march whilst supported pike
faced off the elephants and my three deep knights hopefully did for
the Kn(S).

This is pretty much how the game played out, except my flanking force
came to nothing.

The supported pike did OK against the El(S), with
one flank winning and the other flank losing - it seemed to be a bit
of a lottery as I had suspected it would be, however the game hinged
on the Kn(S) simply blasting throught the centre of my army straight
through about 15 Kn(O) chariots.










Thoughts:

Until we do something about these death machines that are Kn(S) then
the games are going to be seriously unbalanced. They are practically
invulnerable and will absolutely slaughter other troops apart from
Jumbos. I can't see how adding a couple of points is going to make
much off a difference to this - I really think a rules change is
required. I have normally been on the "giving" end of Kn(S), but now
I know what it feels like to be on the "receiving" end. It is not
pleasant.

Rules issues:

1. We encounted the expendable in the flank problem - what happens if
the expendable is hit in the flank and then another element makes
side edge contact with it's rear - does it count as an overlap?

[MC] There are no overlaps against Exp - so no, it doesn't.

2. We had an interesting situation - which looked like this:

KnAKnB
KnCKnDKnG
KnEKnF

KnA, KnB and KnG are Enemy Chariots, KnC, KnD, KnE and KnF are
friendly Knight Chariots.

KnG has attacked KnD in the flank. KnG destroys Kn(D) and promptly
follows up, contacting KnC in the flank. KnC then fights KnA and
wins, according to the combat outcomes, since KnD acted only as an
overlap it ignores negative combat outcomes, but recoils. It has KnF
in full legal contact with it's flank - how does it recoil?

[MC] It just does it .....

[DR] This simply isn't covered in the recoil section.

[MC]Yes it is - the rules say it recoils and ther's no rule saying it can't.

[MC]The rule saying troops are destroyed intead of recoiling if they have
enemy in contact with their flank is for those that have an actual socre
to compare with the enemy - not those in flank contact.

3. Flees. I have uploaded a file called "flees_moves", the psiloi is
routing. Where does it go to? It does not recoil, but must turn
towards the table edge. However if it turns 90 degrees then there is
another obstruction in the direction turned so as per the flee move
instructions it can't. So where does it go?

[MC] It turns towards the table edge - there is now an obstruction - it
cannot turn 90 deg because there is another obstruction - therefore it
does not make that turn.

[MC] It tries to flee towards its table edge, it cannot avoid the Jumbo, so
it is destroyed.

[GP] I must admit my Kn(S) could do no wrong there are no book 2 armies that could stand up to them with the 12 EL(S) as support.
It has the highest quick to elements ratio possible i think of any army, it also has no filler to kill you have to kill Kn(S) or El(S).

Best Regards
Geoff

[Hathroha]

Hello Geoff

I refer to your battle report of Feb 2008, your Classical Indian against Dave Raddock's Western Chou, as well as to your draft of 400 AP Army list in the dbmmpaylerhandbook.

Bows are not mandatory anymore?!?

Regards
Laurence
Zurich/Switzerland

[Tim Child]

[GP] I must admit my Kn(S) could do no wrong there are no book 2 armies that could stand up to them with the 12 EL(S) as support.
It has the highest quick to elements ratio possible i think of any army, it also has no filler to kill you have to kill Kn(S) or El(S).

Best Regards
Geoff

I can think of several armies that would give this combo some pause for thought.  Anything with mass Irr Sp(I) will absorb you in the pillow of death.  Quantities of Ax and Ps will kill off the El pdq.  You're very unmanoeuvreable, so something small and light will have the ability to vip around your flanks and into your rear.  You have nothing with which to screen the Elephants, so Roman Art(F) will cause you some pain. 

How about African Patrician Roman?  Reg LH(S) led by generals to keep the Kn entertained or go around the outside, while Ax and Ps polish off the nellies. 

Or Bithynian or Scots-Irish - 4-5 ranks of Ax(O) and Ps in a straight up fight.  The nellies will be dead and the army broken before the Irish suffer enough casualties to break.

None of these are exactly common choices, but they would be if the "IPZ" became a regular feature on the "tour".   

Tim Child

[Barritus]

Hello Geoff

I refer to your battle report of Feb 2008, your Classical Indian against Dave Raddock's Western Chou, as well as to your draft of 400 AP Army list in the dbmmpaylerhandbook.

Bows are not mandatory anymore?!?

Regards
Laurence
Zurich/Switzerland

No they are not. The current version of the list allows you to exchange 1 Ele (O) and 1 Bw (O) for 1 Ele (S). However, the current version of the list has downgraded the chariots from Kn (S) to Kn (X).

At first glance the list looks impressive. But I think I'd be happy to take it on with most of the armies in my collection (Nikephorian Byzantine, Late Imperial Roman, Hellenistic Greek (Aitolian), Alexandrian Macedonian, Sub-Roman British and Early Crusader among them).