Small Seleucid army - help

[Michal Ciemniewski]

Hi,

I am new to DBMM. I have been playing DBA for a 2 years now and I would like to start DBMM. I have decided to collect Seleucids [320-280]. I will collect them for DBA and for DBMM.

I think about a small DBMM army. Maby 300AP? Could You help me with my first rooster?

[Barritus]

G'day Michal, and welcome to the fourm.

What experience do you have with DBMM? Not much?

If you have little experience with DBMM, my first suggestion would be to use post-280 Seleucids if you have any choice about it. The pre-280 list gives you a lot more elephants, but at the cost of including compulsory Ax (O). This makes no difference in DBA, but is a more serious issue in DBMM. In the post-280 list, the Ax (O) are replaced by compulsory Ax (S). In DBMM they cost only 1 AP more, but they are 1 Morale Equivalent each, where Ax (O) are only 0.5 ME each. DBMM also makes (S) troops much more powerful than (O), and Ax (S) have a Quick Kill against Spear. Elephants are a powerful weapon, but they are hard to use well. Altogether, I think this makes the 280-205 Seleucids more useful than the 320-280 Seleucids. Of course, none of this stops you from having 320-280 Seleucids for your DBA army - all of the elements you'd need in that would already be in your DBMM army.

Having said that, when putting together a Seleucid army, I recommend a very simple structure, with few different troop types. The Seleucid list provides so many useful troop types that it's tempting to use many or all of them. In my experience, this is a mistake. Concentrate on Pike, Auxilia and Psiloi for the centre, and a mix of mounted troops (Knights, Light Horse, Elephants and Cavalry) for the flanks. Don't bother with Artillery, Expendables, Warband, Hordes, Bow or Camels. This organisation then suggests a simple deployment plan - infantry in the centre and mounted on the flanks. And this, in turn, suggests PIP dice assignment for DBMM - lowest PIP dice in the centre, and higher PIP dice on the flanks.

Good luck with your army.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

Thanks a lot!

How experienced I am? I am not experienced at all. I read the rules now [the writing tyle is not the helping factor] but it will take me few more days to understand the general idea how DBMM works. That is why I asked for help. A sample army list with some commens would help.

280-208 Seleucids is as good as 320-280. As You said. There are no differences between those 2 armies in DBA terms.

I was thinking about putting together a simple army. Still some tasty little additions like 2 artillery would be a nice thing to have. Bows/Camelry [which I like], warbands or Sch Chariots [very Seleucid] can wait. They were not the core of the army anyway.

[toby]

At the back of the rules book there are rules for two variants of DBMM at (nominally) 100 AP and 200 AP. These can make quite good little battles to get your mind round the rules and also allow you to not have to fork out too much for lead in one go. DBMM100 armies are also not much larger than DBA armies.

In terms of troop compositions, Seleucid should be in the next batch of lists that Phil puts on the DBMM list so you should get more clarity in what the troop gradings will be. Whatever happens it will still be an army with a lot of possible different troop types, which makes it a good starter for a lot of other different armies.

I think there might even be some DBMM 100 and DBMM 200 competitions being planned, depending on where you are.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

New Seleucid list? Great!

I will have to read DBMM 200 rules then.

DBMM competitions? In Poland? Hmm... Hard to believe  . I wish there were but there are no gamers in Poland to run a competition like that.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

Ok. Here it is. My first dbmm rooster:

1   Companions   Reg   Kn(F)      CinC
5   Line cavalry   Reg   Kn(F)      
3   Skythians   Irr   Lh(F)      
2   Elephants   Irr   El(O)

1   Sub-general   Reg   Pk(S)      
7   Argyraspids   Reg   Pk(S)      
16   Phalanx   Reg   Pk(O)      
6   Asiatic archers and slingers   Irr   Ps(O)      
6   Thureophoroi and thorakitai   Reg   Ax(S)      
4   Kappadokian   Irr   Ps(S)      
2   Heavy bolt-shooter   Reg   Art(O)   

TOTAL: 304 AP

This is my first list so please rate the list. Unit balance, unit types etc. How to use regular and irr light troops, is the Pk core to big/to small? Is the number od Ax/Ps ok? Maby I should change asiatic Ps to Bw?

I was also thinking about an ambush.

[toby]

A lot of it depends on your playing style.

2 commands is never normally a good idea. I'm not sure what army size you are targetting - most competition armies are 400 AP and the army lists tend to work best at this size (apart from scenario games which tend to be much larger).

The ME for your commands are 21 and 40, so if the pike command loses 14 ME and breaks, the whole army will break, which  means you can lose the army despite only a fifth of the army being killed.

Normally people tend to have two commands of mounted/light troops and a central command of pike for Hellenistic armies.

Remember as well the DBMM regular command system - its best to design it so that 1 command can always cope with a very low PIP dice and one can exploit a high PIP dice. Personally I like to give one flank (the one with the Kn(F)) the high dice as the hammer command. The other flank can then get the low dice as the refused flank. This then leaves the phalanx with the middle dice. This seems excessive early in the game but can be useful later in the game when the phalanx is starting to get broken up. If however you are fighting a mounted enemy (like Parthians), you probably need both flanks to have reasonable dice and the phalanx will just have to cope with the low dice. It probably won't be able to do much anyway.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

I know that the propotions depends on playing style but until my first few games I will have to base on Your advise.

400AP? Why not. The army is still not that big [I can paint all element in few months]. You advise me to add an extra general?


Ok. 400AP list:

1   Companions                           Reg   Kn(F)       CinC   31
5   Line cavalry                            Reg     Kn(F)               55
2   Elephants                             Irr       El(O)             32
                    
1   Sub-general                           Reg    Pk(S)       SG    25
7   Argyraspids                            Reg     Pk(S)               35
16   Phalanx                                    Reg      Pk(O)           64
6   Asiatic archers and slingers        Irr   Bw(I)                 18
6   Thureophoroi and thorakitai       Reg        Ax(S)              30
4   Kappadokian                           Irr     Ps(S)               12
2   Heavy bolt-shooter                Reg      Art(O)           16
                       
1   Companions                          Reg   Kn(F)       SG   31
1   Companions                          Reg   Kn(F)                11
1   Agema                                    Reg     Kn(F)              11
3   Skythians                              Irr      Lh(F)             12
2   Tarantines                            Reg     Lh(O)               10

AMBUSH                                                                                 10

                                                                                           403

[toby]

I will forbear to mention that you should probably drop a bw(I) to bring it down to 400 AP.

The line, companions and agema are going to be problematic. Some of them may be wedged Kn(F), the line possibly unwedged. The wedged ones are impetuous, so you probably want to keep them them all in one command. Kn(F) can also be quite brittle, which is an argument for either having the minimum of them, or having the maximum of them in one big block to try and punch through. The 'refused' flank might be better off with Cv(O) if any are available, and some LH(O) on both flanks.

The pike block will get a free march move each turn if the front two ranks are entirely Pike, and will also get a free PIP from the sub-general if it is entirely regular. You might be better off moving the Bw(I) into the refused flank command because I suspect they will never get to move up with the phalanx. I would just make the phalanx command pike, possibly with some Ps at the back of the block. It can then continue to grind forward even if it gets the low PIP. Move the terrain troops into the refused flank command and use the PIPs from that command to move them around - they want to be getting into bits of terrain and acting as the hinge to the pike block.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

I am starting to uderstand how the whole thing works Now I have 3 groups of similar piont size. How about it now? I also removed Bw - I like Bw a lot in DBA but they were making my first list hard to compose.


1   Companions   Reg   Kn(F)       CinC   31
5   Line cavalry   Reg   Kn(F)           55
2   Elephants   Irr   El(O)           32
3   Skythians   Irr   Lh(F)           12
                   
1   Sub-general   Reg   Pk(S)       SG   25
7   Argyraspids   Reg   Pk(S)           35
16   Phalanx   Reg   Pk(O)           64
6   Asiatic slingers   Irr   Ps(O)           12
2   Heavy bolt-shooter   Reg   Art(O)           16
                    
1   Sub-general    Reg   Kn(F)       SG   31
2   Tarantines   Reg   Lh(O)           10
3   Galatian cavalry   Irr   Cv(O)           21
6   Thureophoroi and thorakitai   Reg   Ax(S)           30
4   Kappadokian   Irr   Ps(S)           12

Ambush

Total AP: 396

[toby]

Looking better (or more conventional - the two things might not be the same).

The ME are now:
21
32
17

so the disheartening and break points are:
5.25/7
8/10.6
4.25/5.6

So losing 4 Kn(F) will break the first command, which seems reasonable. If you can move 3 more ME into it though, you can afford to lose 5 Kn(F) before the command breaks. Having the elephants in there helps put off people with better quality Kn from attacking you but might reduce the mobility of the Kn(F).

[Michal Ciemniewski]

Thx a milion! - I will take a closer look at the "elephant flank" and I will try to add an extra Kn or two.

Colud You explain me how Irr and Reg rules works? Can not find it in the rulebook. What is the difference?

[LAP1964]

Hi Michal,
I notice you have Taratines Lh as 5AP,when in fact there are only 4AP and as your army list is only 396AP,this will allow to buy 6 Irr Hd(O) to add to the C-in-Cs command(don't worry about moving them just leave at the back).This will bring the ME up to 24.As for the Irr,Reg rules have a look at page 27 PIP expenditure,you will see generally it costs more PIPs to move Irrs than Regs if you want to move other than straight ahead.Also page 30 Spontaneous Advance,generally there are more Irrs doing this than Regs.There are more,but these I think are the main ones.
LES.
PS,I am glade you droped the Bw as you are only allowed to upgrade 1/2 the Ps on that line to Bw.

[Michal Ciemniewski]

I have double checked and the reg LH(O) are 5Ap...

[toby]

Yes - Reg LH(O) are 5 AP.