A QRS for Pips

[vexillia]

We forgot one case! An disheartened irregular group (other than lights, generals, etc.) turning 180? and wheeling less than its full move pays 4 pips.  .

This isn't a case.

• Disheartened  is command difficulty and not covered by difficult evolutions or irregular ineptness so it's "outside scope"
• Player's will have to add 1 pip for moving disheartened troops be they regular or irregluar as they will for lots of other situations.

The grid only really works for the two main categories d & e.  There's also sections a, b, c & f!

--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/

[MikeCampbell]

Um.....surely the answer is if the lead element moves the full distance allowed then it has made a full move - and if it hasn't then it hasn't?

Not as written.  If you lead with an "internal" element then its move, full or otherwise, is not covered by the rules which only refer to the group's  front corners and because an "internal" element forms neither corner.

I dont' follow - the groups front corners are the corners of the front of the group - the leading rank of formation forming column is 1 element wide - and its corners are the groups front corners.  Where the element started within the previous formation does not matter.

[vexillia]

the leading rank of [a] formation forming column is 1 element wide and its corners are the groups front corners. 

I can't find the concept of a "leading rank" or the construct that a group's front corners morph from those visible on the table immediately prior to column formation anywhere in the rules so this doesn't stack up. 

All I can find is a reference to a group's front corners which, in the absence of text to the contrary, are those visible at the start of the group move. 

I think your earlier point "if the lead element moves the full distance allowed then it has made a full move" is actually the way to go but unfortunately I don't see this in the rules either. 

If I've missed anything in the rules please point it out and put me out of my misery ;-)

--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/

[MikeCampbell]

there dosn't need to be a "concept" of a front rank - there just is one.

It's the element that is at the front.

If you want to play it the simple way then it's a pretty easy thing to do - you just do it.

[landmeister]

This isn't a case.
The grid only really works for the two main categories d & e.  There's also sections a, b, c & f!

Sorry, Martin. I didn't explain myself. What I wanted to say is an irregular group other than lights (this is why I justified them as disheartened ) is making a 180? turn, wheeling and moving less. This costs 4 pips.

Sorry again 

[vexillia]

Sorry, Martin. I didn't explain myself. What I wanted to say is an irregular group other than lights (this is why I justified them as disheartened ) is making a 180? turn, wheeling and moving less. This costs 4 pips.

No problem. 

Firstly irregular groups other than lights can't turn 180 - page 29 - they have to be disheartened to do so.

Secondly the pips are as follows:

• 1 for group move
• 1 for allowed (disheartened irregulars) 180 turn (difficult evolution)
• 0 for less than full move (difficult evolution) as specifically excluded
• 1 for irregular ineptness

In most circumstances that will be it.  A 4th pip would only be required if the180 turn took the disheartened towards the enemy (command difficulty).

--
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/

[nftaylor]

Firstly irregular groups other than lights can't turn 180 - page 29 - they have to be disheartened to do so.

Not quite. Irregular groups of Cv can turn 180 degrees. This includes Cv(S) and Cv(I) in contrast to the Irregular Ineptness section in PIPs which specifies Cv(O)

Niall

[vexillia]

Firstly irregular groups other than lights can't turn 180 - page 29 - they have to be disheartened to do so.

Not quite. Irregular groups of Cv can turn 180 degrees. This includes Cv(S) and Cv(I) in contrast to the Irregular Ineptness section in PIPs which specifies Cv(O)

Niall

Quite right.

---
Martin Stephenson
Vexillia: Wargames Miniatures & Accessories
http://vexillia.ltd.uk
http://vexilliagallery.blogspot.com/
Personal web logs
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/

[landmeister]

Secondly the pips are as follows:

• 1 for group move
• 1 for allowed (disheartened irregulars) 180 turn (difficult evolution)
• 0 for less than full move (difficult evolution) as specifically excluded
• 1 for irregular ineptness

In most circumstances that will be it.  A 4th pip would only be required if the180 turn took the disheartened towards the enemy (command difficulty).

You're right again  . I think I have a problem with 180? turns 

Thank you very much

[Valentinian Victor]

And dont forget that 2 ME elements dont become disheartened, and therefore if irregular and dont meet the qualifiers, they cannot turn 180! I got caught out by that rule with my Gepids, could not turn one of my Kn(F) command's to face to the rear even though part of the command, the Ps(O) archers, were disheartened.

[vexillia]

Well after two and a half months a clarification of sort has emerged.  I posted this - http://tinyurl.com/6bmq7l - on the DBMMlist as part of a discussion of items that needed clarifying.  Chris Handley, who was heavily involved in play testing the rules with Phil Barker, replied (see http://tinyurl.com/9la9pe)

   "as neither of the groups front corners have moved their maximum distance [its covered by the rules]"

So this moves costs 2 PIPs for regular troops and 3 for irregulars.

I think this is going to have a big impact as, judging by the comments, there are a lot of people who don't pay the extra PIP.

[foxgom]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your work.

I find this interpretation is very very silly and impossible to explain to any beginner.

If three regular elements in a line create a column behind either of the edge elements, it costs one PIP, but if you use the centre element is costs 2 PIPs.

This comes about by interpreting the corners of the group meaning the initial formation and not the final formation. (The corners of the head of the column have made a full move, whichever element advances).

IMHO it is this sort of over complicated hair splitting that gives DBMM a bad press when compared to competitors.
 
Very unhappy and planning on ignoring this interpetation,

neil fox (a big DBMM fan).
 

[vexillia]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your work.

And work it was.

I find this interpretation is very very silly and impossible to explain to any beginner.

It could have been simpler. 

Perhaps you tell the beginner it costs more as some troops are moving left whilst other right and they get in a right mess when they meet in the middle. 

[william]

Hi Martin,

Thanks for your work.

I find this interpretation is very very silly and impossible to explain to any beginner.

If three regular elements in a line create a column behind either of the edge elements, it costs one PIP, but if you use the centre element is costs 2 PIPs.

This comes about by interpreting the corners of the group meaning the initial formation and not the final formation. (The corners of the head of the column have made a full move, whichever element advances).

IMHO it is this sort of over complicated hair splitting that gives DBMM a bad press when compared to competitors.
 
Very unhappy and planning on ignoring this interpetation,

neil fox (a big DBMM fan).
 

Totally agree with above statement, is this an official pronouncement from Mr Barker or from Chris.

I will also ignore this until offical proscription is made

William

[MikeCampbell]

Ditto.

When you meaure how far the front corners have moved it must be after the move - otherwise how can yuo neasure how far they have moved?

so it is the post-move corners that matter - end of story as far as I'm concerned.