Forming column from line

[william]

  When forming column from line the front of the column must move straight ahead, ok.( except when turning 90 degrees ).

If forming of the line happens over a number of moves or pips, after the initial move does the head of the column still have to go straight ahead or can it wheel while the rear ranks fall in maintaining column formation ?

William

[Valentinian Victor]

There is nothing to prevent you wheeling the column from what I'm reading.

[landmeister]

Yes. The head element can wheel and all other elements integrating the column follow behind. What you can't do while forming it is having elements not in the column itself facing different directions.

[foxgom]

Hi

Page 29 states

"Until a contracting group is entirely in column, each of it?s elements must end up facing the same direction and in both edge and corner-to-corner-contact...."

So if you have a large group to put into column, you will have to march a long way straight ahead until all the elements are in the column and from that moment you can wheel.

The obvious exception to marching straight ahead is when you turn 90 degrees from line into column.

neil fox

[andrew]

In the middle of the section titled 'contract or turn 90 degrees into a column' on page 29 is the sentence "It can wheel."  That is pretty specific.  Further down the same page it discusses bent columns and "each element is treated as if lined up behind that in front".  So I can't see any issues with wheeling a group that is trying to form a column.

For me there are two other issues with this that are worth discussing.  If you wheeled such a group do you incur a PIP penalty for a difficult evolution?  I think the answer is yes because, until the final element is in column, you are not a column and you have wheeled, which according to page 29 is a difficult evolution.

Secondly, if you start to form a column but have insufficient move / PIPs to complete the move this bound, can you change your mind in the next bound?  DBx has no 'memory' from a previous bound but the rules are specific about the contracting group remaining as a group - although the bottom of page 28 states that groups are temporary.  I don't really have an opinion on this (and usually let my opponent change his mind without argument) but I would be interested to hear other opinions.....

Andrew

[Valentinian Victor]

I dont believe there is a need for there to be an additional pip expenditure for wheeling in this circumstance as the group would be considered to be a column, even if there were elements still not properly formed up as such. Remember, the movement of the head of the column is what is the main determinant under this circumstance.

[LawrenceG]

I dont believe there is a need for there to be an additional pip expenditure for wheeling in this circumstance as the group would be considered to be a column, even if there were elements still not properly formed up as such. Remember, the movement of the head of the column is what is the main determinant under this circumstance.

IMO a partially formed column is not a column, and if you wheel a non-column as you form the column, you must pay pips as if it is not a column - because it is not a column when you start.

I note that you cannot wheel and partially form a column unless at least two elements forming a subgroup don't make it into the column. (All elements must end edge to edge and corner to corner with another one, and those that fail to join the column can only move sideways (not wheel). )

[MikeCampbell]

There is no such thing as a partuially formed column in DBMM AFAIK.

It may take a while to form the column you want - but those troops that have gotten in behind the leading element are in a column that exists at that moment, and the others are not in any column at all.

If the wheeling elements are in a column then they are in a column.  If wheeling elements are not in a column then they are not in a column.

[LawrenceG]

There is no such thing as a partuially formed column in DBMM AFAIK.

It may take a while to form the column you want - but those troops that have gotten in behind the leading element are in a column that exists at that moment, and the others are not in any column at all.

If the wheeling elements are in a column then they are in a column.  If wheeling elements are not in a column then they are not in a column.

While the term "partially formed column" is not formally defined in the rules, we all know what it is.

If we were to use terms to be found in, say, the section "contract or turn 90 deg into a  column" on page 29, we could replace "partially formed column"  with "contracting group containing elements not yet in the column".

Such a group, as a whole, is not a column. If you consider a subgroup only of elements that have joined the column, then that subgroup is a column. You could move this subgroup separately and split it off as a column.

In a move in which the group contracts, elements that do not join the column can only move sideways (not wheel) and must end edge to edge and corner to corner with another element of the group.

[andrew]

It may take a while to form the column you want - but those troops that have gotten in behind the leading element are in a column that exists at that moment, and the others are not in any column at all.

If the wheeling elements are in a column then they are in a column.  If wheeling elements are not in a column then they are not in a column.

If I am reading your post correctly then I believe you are saying that so long as the elements that aren't in the column don't wheel then there is no PIP penalty.  I don't think that is correct.  The rules state a difficult evolution occurs when "a group other than a column wheels".  If you have a partially formed column, and the lead element wheels while you are still trying to form a column, then according to the rules this is a difficult evolution, even if the only elements that wheeled were directly behind the lead element.

Andrew

[foxgom]

In the middle of the section titled 'contract or turn 90 degrees into a column' on page 29 is the sentence "It can wheel."  That is pretty specific.  Further down the same page it discusses bent columns and "each element is treated as if lined up behind that in front".  So I can't see any issues with wheeling a group that is trying to form a column.

Andrew

Hi

I think we are all in agreement that you cannot finish a move with a wide rectangle of elements with a wheeling column leading out of the front of it.
I interpret the sentence "until a contacting group is entirely in column..." as meaning that the above condition is also not possible during a move.  What else should it mean?
As you said, it does state that a column can wheel, but a contracting group is not a column and it cannot wheel.

neil fox

[andrew]

Hi Neil

I'm not sure I agree with your first sentence given that groups other than columns are allowed to wheel.

I understand what you are saying but I don't agree with the interpretation (although I would happily accept my interpretation is incorrect if there was an official clarification).  The wording on page 29 goes like this : "The ... front element ... moves forward.  It moves up to the full tactical move distance...{snip}.  It can wheel."  I can't see anything there, or later*, that prohibits a wheel.

*The sentence you are referring to is "Until a contracting group is entirely in column, each of its elements must end facing the same direction as and in both edge and corner-to-corner contact with another element of the original group."  If we look at the scenario described of a rectangle with a protruding column, then the elements in the column are treated as being in edge and corner contact even if they have wheeled, according to the rule further down the same page : "Until all have done so {wheeled}, the column will have a bend at that point, but each element is treated as if lined up behind that in front."

The issue for me is that if such a group (i.e. a rectangle with a partially formed column out of the front) tried to wheel then would it incur a PIP penalty for being a difficult evolution?  At the point of wheeling, not all elements are in column so the group is "other than a column" and I believe it should incur the PIP  penalty.

Also, the issue I see with the part "until a contacting group is entirely in column" is what I said earlier - can you change your mind in the following bound if you are not 100% in a column?  Also, can you change your mind mid-bound?

Regards
Andrew

[foxgom]

*The sentence you are referring to is "Until a contracting group is entirely in column, each of its elements must end facing the same direction as and in both edge and corner-to-corner contact with another element of the original group."  If we look at the scenario described of a rectangle with a protruding column, then the elements in the column are treated as being in edge and corner contact even if they have wheeled, according to the rule further down the same page : "Until all have done so {wheeled}, the column will have a bend at that point, but each element is treated as if lined up behind that in front."
Regards
Andrew

Hi Andrew

The quoted rule states that until the column is completed, the elements must be in corner to corner contact with each other, which is not the case if you start to wheel.

The second quoted rule further down the page applies to columns and a contracting group is not a column, at least, not until all elements are behind one another.  Once the column is completed, you can wheel all you want.

In DBM diagram 4b it used to be possible for groups to wheel and build columns at the same time but this is no longer the case of DBMM.

neil

[LawrenceG]

On page 29 we have

Elements of the group not yet in the column...

This implies there are other elements which are in the column. At least one of these elements is explicitly permitted to wheel.

Elements in the column are treated as lined up with the one in front, if the column wheeled.

All elements must end (paraphrasing) lined up in contact with

another element of the original group

(my italics), not all other elements.

I think there is a good case here for allowing the part that gets into the column to wheel and the part that is not yet in the column to remain unwheeled, as long as each element is in (or treated as in) appropriate contact with another element of the group.

If this was Phil's intention, then he probably would also have intended such a move not to be a difficult evolution.

I am not aware of any historical reason why he would want to prevent a column whose tail is still being formed from a long line from wheeling at its head.

[andrew]

Hmmm - it all comes down to this : "Until a contracting group is entirely in column, each of its elements must end facing the same direction as and in both edge and corner-to-corner contact with another element of the original group."  Which, as we have identified, has more than one potential impact.  Does anyone know Phil's intention with this rule?