Author Topic: Recoiling from War Wagons  (Read 2399 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

foxgom

  • Guest
Recoiling from War Wagons
« on: November 12, 2008, 06:29:35 PM »
Hi

A war wagon faces east.

I attack with two elements from the North on a long side and then one from the West on a short side.

The western element gives a -1, for flank contacted.

The two combats in the North are carried out and both are lost by the attacking elements.

At what point the the flank element recoil?

After the first combat or after the second one?

neil fox

landmeister

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 07:26:37 PM »
Good question!  :o

I would say after the first one, but I'm afraid I can't find any support in the rules... :-\

MikeCampbell

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 08:39:57 PM »
As soon as the first one losses the combat as I read it - see page 38, Combat Outcome, 3rd para from the top of the page (just under 2 bullet points)

Quote
However, if the element fighting an enemy element's front is required to recoil or flee, or is repulsed, spent or destroyed, a friendly element in front edge contact with that enemy element's flank or rear recoils.

andrew

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2008, 09:49:22 AM »
Would there be an advantage to contacting the short side first?  Often the second element fighting the long edge is overlapped once his mate recoils.....

foxgom

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 08:04:09 PM »
Quote
However, if the element fighting an enemy element's front

Yes, but the question is which is the element.
In this case there are two such elements and the element is unclear.

neil

MikeCampbell

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2008, 08:26:25 PM »
IMO each element "fighting" is "the" element for its own combat.

As soon as one of them recoils the flanking element recoils.

andrew

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2008, 05:45:26 AM »
How's this for an interpretation?  (not 100% relevant to the original question but loosely related depending on the interpretation).  If you had previously contacted the short edge first, that becomes the "front" of the WWG - and you then cannot be overlapped (by the long edge itself) when contacting the long edge of the WWG in future combats, assuming you aren't on contact with the "front" of the WWG.  Furthermore, any flank contacts (on any edges other than the "front") will not recoil if other flank attackers lose, e.g.:

WWG faces east per example above
first combat is on western side, and attacker loses ("front" of the WWG is now set to be the western side - see 1 below)
next combat in the next bound by attacker is on the northern side, attacker cannot be overlapped by the long edge (see 2 below) - is that correct?
next combat in another bound by attacker is on the southern side, with overlap support on eastern side - attacker cannot be overlapped, and if loses, the eastern contact does not recoil (see 3 below) - is that correct?

1)  per page 35 : "Train and Boats do not turn to face enemy, but count the edge first contacted by an enemy front edge as their front edge, and, if train, any other edge in contact with an enemy front or side edge as a side edge."  So is this set for the game or the bound?  If it is the game there are some potential ramifications.  If it is the bound, then can someone point me to where it says there is no "memory"?

2)  per page 35 : "lf a War Wagons, Artillery, Baggage (S) or Boats element with a longer base edge currently acting as its front edge is contacted on that edge by 2 enemy elements, it fights each in turn that bound. lf only half the edge is currently in contact, the attacker is overlapped"

3) per page 38 : "However, if the element fighting an enemy element's front is required to recoil or flee, or is repulsed, spent or destroyed, a friendly element in front edge contact with that enemy element's flank or rear recoils."
« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 05:47:22 AM by andrew »

LawrenceG

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2008, 11:37:49 AM »
How's this for an interpretation?  (not 100% relevant to the original question but loosely related depending on the interpretation).  If you had previously contacted the short edge first, that becomes the "front" of the WWG - and you then cannot be overlapped (by the long edge itself) when contacting the long edge of the WWG in future combats, assuming you aren't on contact with the "front" of the WWG.  Furthermore, any flank contacts (on any edges other than the "front") will not recoil if other flank attackers lose, e.g.:

WWG faces east per example above
first combat is on western side, and attacker loses ("front" of the WWG is now set to be the western side - see 1 below)
next combat in the next bound by attacker is on the northern side, attacker cannot be overlapped by the long edge (see 2 below) - is that correct?
next combat in another bound by attacker is on the southern side, with overlap support on eastern side - attacker cannot be overlapped, and if loses, the eastern contact does not recoil (see 3 below) - is that correct?

1)  per page 35 : "Train and Boats do not turn to face enemy, but count the edge first contacted by an enemy front edge as their front edge, and, if train, any other edge in contact with an enemy front or side edge as a side edge."  So is this set for the game or the bound?  If it is the game there are some potential ramifications.  If it is the bound, then can someone point me to where it says there is no "memory"?

2)  per page 35 : "lf a War Wagons, Artillery, Baggage (S) or Boats element with a longer base edge currently acting as its front edge is contacted on that edge by 2 enemy elements, it fights each in turn that bound. lf only half the edge is currently in contact, the attacker is overlapped"

3) per page 38 : "However, if the element fighting an enemy element's front is required to recoil or flee, or is repulsed, spent or destroyed, a friendly element in front edge contact with that enemy element's flank or rear recoils."

If I understand you correctly, you contact the wwg first on the short edge (making it count as the front)  then with 2 lements on the long edge (counting as a flank).

When the attacker on the front loses, both the flank attackers have to recoil (by your point 3). That is the end of close combat until you move back in.

If you move back in, which ever edge you contact first this second time becomes the new front edge, so if you contact the long edge first then you can be overlapped by it. 

andrew

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #8 on: November 16, 2008, 03:00:59 AM »
Hi Lawrence

Understood.  It comes down to whether "count the edge first contacted by an enemy front edge as their front edge" is for the game or the bound.  I'm not fussed either way but like one or two other things that have been raised through this forum, and the Yahoo group, unless it is in black and white, then it is open to varying interpretations.

Andrew

LawrenceG

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #9 on: November 16, 2008, 11:57:26 AM »
Hi Lawrence

Understood.  It comes down to whether "count the edge first contacted by an enemy front edge as their front edge" is for the game or the bound.  I'm not fussed either way but like one or two other things that have been raised through this forum, and the Yahoo group, unless it is in black and white, then it is open to varying interpretations.

Andrew

I agree it is not stated explicitly in the rules. If you do it per game, then it can lead to some odd effects. The way I think it is supposed to work, and the way I always did it in DBM worked as follows:

Consider all enemy front edges currently in contact with the warwagon.
Identify which one got there first.
The warwagon edge in contact with that edge counts as the front for this bound.

If the first contact managed to stay there for several bounds then that edge would be fixed as the front for several bounds, so it is not strictly "per bound".

If an element has been bouncing in and out of contact, you only count the last time it bounced in.

MikeCampbell

  • Guest
Re: Recoiling from War Wagons
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2008, 08:42:54 PM »
IMO it is jsut for that combat - no it's not explicitly stated but it's a pretty common sense solution. 

As Andrew says making the edge for the game wil just complicate things - you'll have to remember which edge it was for each WWg for the whole game for starters, and DB* is pretty good about NOT having to remember what happened in previous bounds.