Pip costs

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi

Quick query to make sure I am getting the new Pip costs correct (I confuse myself with DBM legacy)

If Irr group (all Cav(S) not in column) moves :
A. A full move straight ahead this cost 1 Pip
B. If it moves straight but less than full this costs 2 Pips ?
C. If it wheels a full move on one flank this 3 Pips ?
D. If it wheels less than full move this costs 4 Pips ?

Cheers

[bunwin63]

A) Correct
B) 3 pips I think. one for the move, one for both corners moving less then max, one for clumsy irreg doing so
C) Correct
D) Not sure about it costing 4 pips. To me, "both corners move less than full move" doesn't apply to a partial wheel, as one corner doesn't move. I think this would be 3 pips, one for moving, one for the wheel, one for clumsy irregular wheeling.

If you combined the wheel with a partial move straight ahead, and still didn't move your full move allowance, eg you moved ahead 80p then wheeled one corner 100p, I think that would be 4 pips. one for the move, one for the wheel, one for both corners not moving max, one for clumsy irreg. I'm pretty sure that irregular ineptness only applies once, not once for each evolution.

Hope I've got it right!
Bryan

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi

ta for reply

B. is costly and hard to cast off old DBM Pip costs from my tiny brain 

Re the Irr Inept costs I also think (ie hope) they only apply once not 1 per multiple cause (not that clear from rules)

Cheers

[dgp1957]

IMO I think you got it right Bryan, in the rules it states under 'Irregular Ineptness'
'Performs any evolution of those listed immediately above'
I think that it would state each instead of any if otherwise

David

[bunwin63]

D) Not sure about it costing 4 pips. To me, "both corners move less than full move" doesn't apply to a partial wheel, as one corner doesn't move. I think this would be 3 pips, one for moving, one for the wheel, one for clumsy irregular wheeling.

Now I'm even less sure about this one. On the oz_dbm list when I posed this question, someone was astounded that I would think that the inside corner of a wheeling group doesn't move.

How are people playing this? That is, does a partial wheel - where the inside corner remains stationery apart from being the point around which the group pivots, and the outside corner moves less than full distance - constitute both corners moving less than maximum distance, or not?

Bryan

[Doug M.]

Now I'm even less sure about this one. On the oz_dbm list when I posed this question, someone was astounded that I would think that the inside corner of a wheeling group doesn't move.

How are people playing this? That is, does a partial wheel - where the inside corner remains stationery apart from being the point around which the group pivots, and the outside corner moves less than full distance - constitute both corners moving less than maximum distance, or not?

Bryan

The way I read it, if the outside element of the group wheeling moves maximum distance with the outside corner, then it doesn't incur the additional PIP penalty. The inside corner on which it pivots is a re herring, as the rules for a short move only apply if both front corners don't move full distance.

[bunwin63]

Doug,
I agree, that if the outside corner wheels full distance then it is not a short move and the inside corner doesn't come into it. But what about if the outside corner DOES move short, eg Cv(O) only wheeling say 80p? In that case it would be a DE if the pivoting inside corner is deemed to be moving, but not if it is considered to be stationery
Bryan

[Barritus]

Bunwin

As far as I'm concerned, if a group is wheeling, the inner corner has moved less than its full move.

Harsh maybe, but wheeling a wide group is a surprisingly hard thing to do, if you've ever done much in the way of close order drill.

[bunwin63]

Barritus

I agree, a partial wheel should cost an extra PIP. What I'm saying is that the rule doesn't say that. Phil has used the word corner, and a corner is a point, which doesn't move during the wheel. At the end of a wheel, the corner is in the same place as when it started, therefore hasn't moved.

I've suggested a clarification and/or alternate wording on the DBMM list:
"For the purpose of this condition, the inside corner of a
wheeling group is deemed to have moved less than maximum distance,
even if it has merely pivoted in place."
OR
add another DE condition "the outside corner of a wheeling group
moves less than maximum distance" or something like that.

Anyway, it seems that I'm the only person in the world who thinks that the rule doesn't say what the author means it to say, so I'll shut up now before the Inquisition comes calling! :-)

[Barritus]

Barritus

I agree, a partial wheel should cost an extra PIP. What I'm saying is that the rule doesn't say that. Phil has used the word corner, and a corner is a point, which doesn't move during the wheel. At the end of a wheel, the corner is in the same place as when it started, therefore hasn't moved.

I've suggested a clarification and/or alternate wording on the DBMM list:
"For the purpose of this condition, the inside corner of a
wheeling group is deemed to have moved less than maximum distance,
even if it has merely pivoted in place."
OR
add another DE condition "the outside corner of a wheeling group
moves less than maximum distance" or something like that.

I think there's a lot in DBMM which could do with being clarified, Mr Barker's statements notwithstanding. I see no reason not to clarify this as well.

Anyway, it seems that I'm the only person in the world who thinks that the rule doesn't say what the author means it to say, so I'll shut up now before the Inquisition comes calling! :-)

Just look out for Hd (F) elements armed with pitchforks and flaming torches... ;-)

[bunwin63]

Will do!

[loki223]

I agree with Barritus.

Even if the inside point did not physically move forward or backwards it did still pivot in place. which is still moving.

[bunwin63]

Phil has "officially" clarified that a corner that does not move counts as moving less than maximum.

If you think about this, a halt is a difficult evolution as neither corner moves! But I won't go there

Bryan

[toby]

A halt is very specifically defined as not being a move, so that the difficult evolution PIPs don't apply to it.

[bunwin63]

But are difficult evolutions specifically defined as moves, and moves only?