Author Topic: B is for Boundary  (Read 6909 times)

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william

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B is for Boundary
« on: February 10, 2009, 07:30:57 PM »
 ??? Riddle me this B represents a terrain feature called a Boundary, a boundary is ' a major hedge and /or ditch or dry stone wall seperating parishes, townships, grazing territores or farm land from waste '.

So is a Boundary an area or linear feature, if it is an area feature and depending on it's placement dice it may have to be placed well away for other features it is supposed to bound, it could also not be placed on a gentle hill ( defining the border of different grazing areas ).

If it is a linear feature ( which seems to be more apt ) how do you dice for it ( as it may not be long enough to put between some sides of the table).

William

MikeCampbell

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 09:44:00 PM »
the commentary says it is diced for as if an area feature IIRC - but I don't know the whys or therefores of that.

Barritus

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2009, 09:51:21 AM »
??? Riddle me this B represents a terrain feature called a Boundary, a boundary is ' a major hedge and /or ditch or dry stone wall seperating parishes, townships, grazing territores or farm land from waste '.

Yes.

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So is a Boundary an area or linear feature, if it is an area feature and depending on it's placement dice it may have to be placed well away for other features it is supposed to bound, it could also not be placed on a gentle hill ( defining the border of different grazing areas ).

It's an area feature, as implied on page 19:
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An area feature must fit into a rectangle 1200p x 800p...Only a boundary or gully can have a maximum width less than 120p or be longer than 3 times its maximum width.

The way I'm reading it is that you're thinking of the boundary as a simple drystone wall between fields. My apologies if this is incorrect. I suspect the terrain feature should be depicted as thick with shrubbery and 5-metre-tall trees, similar to what I've sometimes seen in the English countryside on "Time Team". These are major terrain features. However, I agree it's odd that it can't be superimposed on gentle hills.

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If it is a linear feature ( which seems to be more apt ) how do you dice for it ( as it may not be long enough to put between some sides of the table).

William

No, it's an area feature, so it's subject to the same placement rules as other area features.

william

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2009, 01:34:51 PM »
 ;D Thanks to Mike and Peter

William

landmeister

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2009, 08:36:58 PM »
Page 19.

Terrain features are either area features, or a linear feature such as a water feature, road or frontier wall.

So it's an area feature.   ;)

william

  • Guest
Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2009, 10:17:22 PM »
Page 19.

Terrain features are either area features, or a linear feature such as a water feature, road or frontier wall.

So it's an area feature.   ;)

 ;D You are of course correct, except that the quote says or a linear feature such as a water feature, road or frontier it does not rule out other features as linear features ( even though I think this is what's implied ), just gives examples of linear features.

Then there is the issue of a frontier wall that is a BUA (f?) therefore an area feature and being a linear feature at the same time.

But then again Boundary is listed area features as it can be classed by going and terrian type, then again most linear features can as well ( except roads ).

TBF I will be taking a Boundary as an area feature even if I think it ( and Gullies ) should be more the linear type and be able to be placed next to other or on certain other terrain pieces but that could used by unscrupulous players to close off the entire table.

 ;) Thanks again

William

Hey I have found the joy of online dictionaries and pasting, just ahve ot remember to use them ( and when ).

Barritus

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 10:44:13 AM »
Then there is the issue of a frontier wall that is a BUA (f?) therefore an area feature and being a linear feature at the same time.

Oh! I hadn't noticed that one. Still, I'm not the sort to skulk behind a Frontier Wall! :-)

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TBF I will be taking a Boundary as an area feature even if I think it ( and Gullies ) should be more the linear type and be able to be placed next to other or on certain other terrain pieces but that could used by unscrupulous players to close off the entire table.

Pardon. Could you explain that, please? How can you close off a table with a Boundary? It's difficult terrain, not impassable.

william

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 11:36:47 AM »
Pardon. Could you explain that, please? How can you close off a table with a Boundary? It's difficult terrain, not impassable.

 :-[ Well not so much as to close a table off just make it very difficult to move arround.

One of the things I like about DBMM is the terrian placing system and there will always have to be a least 1 element wide gap between most ( but not all ) features allowing troops and columns to move through ( into nasty ambushes etc. ), another good thing is the lights deployment section on the flanks allowing certian light contingents the ability to ' get around ' heavier army types.

But if B could be placed up against other area types it could create a difficult going barrier protecting an entire side table edge or frontage at least slowing an oponent down especially with a few well placed Ax defending these features. Ax because they would also stop march move.

I am still not sure what the benefits are of defending terrian ( don't think there is any combat bonus, one  does not have to conform ).

Sorry for any confusion caused  ( confuse myself most of the time ),

William ;D

Barritus

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 12:16:53 PM »
Pardon. Could you explain that, please? How can you close off a table with a Boundary? It's difficult terrain, not impassable.

 :-[ Well not so much as to close a table off just make it very difficult to move arround...if B could be placed up against other area types it could create a difficult going barrier protecting an entire side table edge or frontage at least slowing an oponent down especially with a few well placed Ax defending these features. Ax because they would also stop march move.

Sorry, I still don't follow you. The maximum length of a Boundary is 1200 paces, or 60cm (in 15mm). Well, I suppose that's still a reasonable length, but Boundaries can't be any longer than any other terrain feature.

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I am still not sure what the benefits are of defending terrian ( don't think there is any combat bonus, one  does not have to conform ).

The only effect is the possible -1 or -2 for fighting in difficult terrain, which can apply to both sides. In other words, you don't stand in it; you stand behind it in good going and let the other guy try to fight his way through it.

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Sorry for any confusion caused  ( confuse myself most of the time ),

No worries.

william

  • Guest
Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2009, 02:05:36 PM »

Sorry, I still don't follow you. The maximum length of a Boundary is 1200 paces, or 60cm (in 15mm). Well, I suppose that's still a reasonable length, but Boundaries can't be any longer than any other terrain feature.

Yes but if they were linear terrain they could be placed in conjunction ( and a joining ) with other terrain, say a BUA and a difficult hill linking them up ( I know would depend up edge dice but it is not far fetched ).

You could in one way consider a Boundary in the same as a long element of FO ( except you do not have to spend AP on it ), and after see recently FO being used defended by Ax(S) it may be worth while to take.

Even putting a 1200pc in one of your own flank sectors ( with those few Ax in it ) will make it bit more pip intensive for an opponent to flank march or 'get arround you' on that side.

The only effect is the possible -1 or -2 for fighting in difficult terrain, which can apply to both sides. In other words, you don't stand in it; you stand behind it in good going and let the other guy try to fight his way through it.

Or in the case of Ax 10 paces into it. The boundary is only 20p wide and as most element depths are bigger than that ( Ax being 40p )  so part of the base is going to stick out and making mounted enemy ( or heavy foot ) having to go in to clear you out seems risky for him.

 ;) William

andrew

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2009, 08:17:57 PM »
Hi William

I too asked this question on the Yahoo group - "why is a boundary an area feature?????"

I agree you should at least be able to superimpose a boundary wall on a gentle hill or even a field, or have it abutting a field or a BUA.  We just have to wait patiently for a rule change, or if you and I ever play we can agree to this 'local' rule! :)  But yes the correct treatment, using the current version of the rules, is to treat the B like an other area feature.

I agree with your thoughts on how to use it - try to secure a flank with a strip of DGo which your elements stand behind.  However, the downside with static defences is that they can be walked/driven around (i.e. the Maginole line).  Do you use the Gallic list?

Andrew
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 08:19:38 PM by andrew »

william

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2009, 12:09:52 AM »
 ;D I do have Gauls just do not play with them often as I have only minimum warband yet and not enough chariots.

Yes I did notice B was only available in Gaul ( could that include Gallic based Roman armies and settling tribes { Franks, Visigoths etc } or even some passers through.

And in France and England ( dates for the start of these Hmm ).

I am still trying to get Sp to work ( in between playing with expendables and Lh(S) ) before I even think about huge warbands.

And yes I do think the combination of Ax and boundry could be good ( maybe a English army with some sort of Welsh ally but have not thought deeply about it ).

 ;D William

Barritus

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2009, 02:05:30 AM »
Even putting a 1200pc in one of your own flank sectors ( with those few Ax in it ) will make it bit more pip intensive for an opponent to flank march or 'get arround you' on that side.

Yes, but you've got to be able to put it on the table. A long thin terrain feature might be tricky to place in a useful location, especially as it's placed quite late in the sequence. In fact, I wonder whether the inability to superimpose Boundaries might be a deliberate decision to make it hard to place in a way which would be tactically useful for the defender.

The only effect is the possible -1 or -2 for fighting in difficult terrain, which can apply to both sides. In other words, you don't stand in it; you stand behind it in good going and let the other guy try to fight his way through it.

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Or in the case of Ax 10 paces into it. The boundary is only 20p wide and as most element depths are bigger than that ( Ax being 40p )  so part of the base is going to stick out and making mounted enemy ( or heavy foot ) having to go in to clear you out seems risky for him.

Why put the Ax 10 paces into the Boundary? What does that achieve? The troops which get quick kill against Ax need to be in good going. The location of the Ax is irrelevant - whether you're in the Boundary or in good going, all that matters is what the enemy's going is. If you stand in good going just behind the Boundary, your opponents are going to have to fight you while being in difficult going. Doing that removes their quick kill. And if the enemy sends in Bd, he still takes a -1 in combat, making his combat factor the same as yours.

I just don't see why you need to move your Ax into the Boundary. Apart from anything else it's costly in PIPs.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2009, 11:11:06 AM by Barritus »

Barritus

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2009, 02:22:03 AM »
I agree with your thoughts on how to use it - try to secure a flank with a strip of DGo which your elements stand behind.  However, the downside with static defences is that they can be walked/driven around (i.e. the Maginole line).

I agree with that sentiment. You might get something which protects you to your front, in which case the enemy will attack the other flank, or flank march around it. Or do what Claudius Nero did at the Metaurus when his troops faced Gauls sitting on top of a large steep hill: ignore them and march around behind his own army to attack the opposite enemy flank. And the Gauls just sat up there scratching their backsides.

The next problem with relying on terrain is that it requires you to always be the defender - if you're unlucky enough to be the invader, you're in trouble, unless you can manufacture something out of the enemy's terrain list. Now I used the same trick a lot in DBM with Hellenistic Greek Aitolians: Aggression 0, lots of terrain, and lots of Ps (S). But the difference here was that I didn't rely on a single type of terrain. I used all the difficult going I could lay my hands on.

The last problem is what you do if the terrain dice are unfavourable and the Boundary either doesn't appear or ends up somewhere you can't use it? Hopefully you have a Plan B.

No, the idea of using terrain defensively like this doesn't appeal to me. It smacks too much of handing the initiative to the other guy, with little opportunity to put pressure on him. I always used the Aitolians aggressively - the terrain simply gave my fragile little Ps (S) the protection they needed to swarm around the flanks of enemy formations without being in much danger from mounted, while the heavier troops filled the gaps between the terrain features.

andrew

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Re: B is for Boundary
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2009, 03:13:21 AM »
Agree with your sentiments - it is trying to give you something to anchor a flank upon.  No point leaving an open flank with a free run to the Baggage while your centre pushes forward......

On two occasions of playing Gauls, I got the B down once and being late in the terrain placement sequence, it was pretty constraining regarding how much flank protection it gave me.  That said, it gave me a place to hide the PsI, but they never came into the game anyway (something has gone wrong if you are fighting with the PsI in the Gallic list).

The issue with taking lots of difficult terrain is that now DGo is really really difficult.  In my last game I caught my opponents Ax in the DGo in a column - being Irregular Thracians they were even less manoeuvrable and it wasn't a pretty sight for the Thracians!  IMO DGo is purely for Psiloi unless you are able to march something through in a column.  Otherwise you can't get the PIPs or make the moves you want to make.

Cheers
Andrw