Author Topic: Phil's comments about v1.1  (Read 5604 times)

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MikeCampbell

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Phil's comments about v1.1
« on: May 19, 2009, 12:34:11 AM »
Some snippets from Phil's posts to the Yahoo group over hte last week or so, about what might be in a ?loose leaf? amendment to DBMM sometime in the next....um...well some time...

Change to spontaneous advance:

My current proposal is:

Impetuous troops must advance spontaneously in column, or if not in column
as individual elements, unless:
?           Their C-in-C or command's general is/was inert; and neither
expendables, nor reacting to feigned flight.

******************************
(S) grade factors to become:
+1        if Superior (S) in close combat and:
            Mounted or naval scoring more in own bound.
            Any others (except Artillery) scoring more in own bound against foot or less in enemy bound against mounted.
            Scoring equal.

+2 if more when shooting.
+1 if less when shot at.

******************************

Rear support factors for Sp (& slight mods to a couple of others)

+1 in enemy bound only if:
?           Spears supported by a 2nd rank of Spears of the same or other expressly permitted grade - unless fighting against Cavalry, Light Horse or Psiloi.


-1 inflicted on opponent in own bound only if:
?           Knights or Cavalry that are required to be double-based with mounted or foot.
?           Light Horse (F) supported by a 2nd rank of these - only if fighting against foot.
?           Warband that have a supporting 2nd rank of Warband - only if fighting against foot except Psiloi.
?           Spears (S) or (O) that are supported by a 2nd rank of Spears of the same or other expressly permitted grade - only if fighting against foot except Psiloi.


Barritus

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2009, 02:09:21 PM »
Some snippets from Phil's posts to the Yahoo group over hte last week or so, about what might be in a 'loose leaf' amendment to DBMM sometime in the next....um...well some time...

Ooh! Interesting!

Quote
Change to spontaneous advance:

My current proposal is:

Impetuous troops must advance spontaneously in column, or if not in column
as individual elements, unless:
?           Their C-in-C or command's general is/was inert; and neither
expendables, nor reacting to feigned flight.

Oh how I hate the multiple inversions Phil uses. If I've read this right, being inert doesn't stop expendables from being impetuous, or anyone from being impetuous from an enemy feigned flight. I can live with this. Presumably this confirms that troops under an inert general don't chase after broken enemy, nor will they go for baggage in movement range, or cross hidden obstacles or rivers.

Quote
******************************
(S) grade factors to become:
+1        if Superior (S) in close combat and:
            Mounted or naval scoring more in own bound.
            Any others (except Artillery) scoring more in own bound against foot or less in enemy bound against mounted.
            Scoring equal.

+2 if more when shooting.
+1 if less when shot at.

What's the "Scoring equal" entry mean?

I like the first bit about (S) in close combat - that's much simpler and therefore easier to operate and remember. But the +2 if more when shooting is a bit deadly, particularly if shooting against (I) troops - that's going to make Sp (I) going into Bw (S) like the first day on the Somme. And I can bet Doug Melville will be a bit miffed about the effect it would have on his beloved Scotties.

Quote
******************************

Rear support factors for Sp (& slight mods to a couple of others)

+1 in enemy bound only if:
?           Spears supported by a 2nd rank of Spears of the same or other expressly permitted grade - unless fighting against Cavalry, Light Horse or Psiloi.

So it gives rear support now against Exp, Sp, Bw, Sh, Ax, Art, WWg and Hd. That makes my beloved Sp (I) a little more attractive.

Quote
-1 inflicted on opponent in own bound only if:
?           Knights or Cavalry that are required to be double-based with mounted or foot.
?           Light Horse (F) supported by a 2nd rank of these - only if fighting against foot.
?           Warband that have a supporting 2nd rank of Warband - only if fighting against foot except Psiloi.
?           Spears (S) or (O) that are supported by a 2nd rank of Spears of the same or other expressly permitted grade - only if fighting against foot except Psiloi.

So Kn are now a little less vulnerable to Wb, and Sp (S) and (O) get a few more foot troop types as victims of their -1. I like the second, but I don't think I like the first. Any reasons given for the Kn-Wb change?

Taken as a package, I think the good outweighs the bad, but I'd be curious to hear the reasons for the +2 shooting thing and the Kn-Wb thing.

Thanks for that Mike.

MikeCampbell

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2009, 10:12:06 PM »
Scoring equal means scoring equal - a tie - what else could it mean?

I wouldn't see these as set in stone - it's already been pointed out to Phil that troops going sponno for feigned flight 'cos they think it's real flight should probably go sponno for real flight too!!  And temptation of baggage has been mentioned in the same sentence.....

+2 for superior shooters is functionally the same as -1 on the target, dunno about the Wb/Kn thing other than he said he's trying to simplify stuff

MikeCampbell

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2009, 10:05:35 PM »
Another comment:
Quote
That is just pushing on an open door. Magic tents will not be in 1.1

I do not see anything wrong with the way that Inert will then operate with
non-impetuous troops.

this was in response to a comment that "magic tents" (ie regular baggage) largely negates the lowered PIPs from being inert


Quote
The only problem is then the effect of inert on a relatively few impetuous
armies.
That is, should an Inert general prevent sponno. With the Medieval French in
mind, I now think it should not.

The benefit of sponno is that you can use saved PIPs elsewhere, so the
reduced number still goes further. Maybe the effect should switch from the
input end to the output end. So no reduction in total PIPs, but changes of
direction, march moves, cost more if the general is inert.

andrew

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2009, 07:11:24 AM »
Thanks for posting that Mike.  This forum is much easier to read than the Yahoo group.

I like the clarification re sponno columns - will impet. troops in ambush still be exempt from going sponno?

Without having tested the superior gradings, they appear to be simpler which is a good thing.  A key difference is they have been written from the perspective of the S troop.  Will BwS be the uber-troop?

Making Sp a little tougher might make some of the Sp armies more competitive which isn't a bad thing.  But will we see more foot-based armies because of this change?  Somehow I doubt it......

From a personal perspective I'm not sure I like the new Kn/Wb interaction.......but only because I would normally take on Knights with Wb, but I don't think I would try now......

Barritus

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2009, 02:13:27 PM »
Scoring equal means scoring equal - a tie - what else could it mean?

That I misread your first post and didn't realise it was an automatic tie-breaker for all (S) troops.

Quote
I wouldn't see these as set in stone - it's already been pointed out to Phil that troops going sponno for feigned flight 'cos they think it's real flight should probably go sponno for real flight too!!  And temptation of baggage has been mentioned in the same sentence.....

Fair enough. I don't see any need to rush these amendments into print. But I hope people test them for potential problems.

Quote
+2 for superior shooters is functionally the same as -1 on the target, dunno about the Wb/Kn thing other than he said he's trying to simplify stuff

Fair enough about the shooting +2, although people have long pointed out that (S) shooting against (I) and (F) is deadly. As for the Kn/Wb business, oh well, let's see how it plays out.

Thanks Mike.

MikeCampbell

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2009, 10:19:14 PM »
I can't really comment about what might happen - these are just initial suggestions with lots of discussion to go before they become an amendment, and posting every mssg to here isn't an option!!  :o

I'm happy to keep posting occasional quotes where they seem like a milestone or a significant change or whatever

So think of them as "teasers" :)




Lorenzomele2001

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2009, 12:13:59 AM »
PB was considering too to introduce a compulsory repulse for CvO and I losing a fight with infantry and not being doubled.
In such a way CvO would be less steady and better suited to operate in flank areas.

Valentinian Victor

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2009, 10:31:53 AM »
I think the Spontaneuous Movement rules will require a rewrite if Phil intends Inert Impetious elements to spontanously advance. I still think this may make the Inert general option rather attractive to those who have Regular inert generals as then they wont have to spend those precious pips moving their impetuous irregulars immediately before those elements move into contact, thereby ensuring they remain impetuous and not needing pips to move into flank contact once gaps in the line appear.

I think the grading simplifications are shaping up nicely and will make Cv(S) slightly less all-powerful in the process.

Version 1.1 is eagerly awaited by me at least.

Barritus

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2009, 03:52:43 PM »
I wouldn't worry too much about Inert C-in-Cs becoming attractive. That just means a whole lot of stratagems I don't have to worry about my opponent using against me!

But that's a discussion for another thread...

MikeCampbell

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2009, 04:20:42 AM »
Another post - I dont' actualy understand what's going on with some of these.. :-[

I expect to have a 1.1for the next reprint at the end of the year, so I've been taking holiday week ends off from lists and doing some deep thinking. See if you can find any catches in these.

Sponno:
Inert will not in future stop sponno, so the French can go bananas. Gelimer at Tricameron is sorted by changing to -
?           They are mounted that would reach fortifications or an unfrozen water feature, or enter difficult going             other than FO.



Siamese-twin  ambushes:  A defender cannot place ambushers further forward than the battlefield centre line or within 400p of another ambush, or an invader place ambushers less than 400p short of the centre line.



Single element moves:

A tactical or march move by a single element other than of Expendables, War Wagons or Ships:

?           Can be in any direction provided that neither front corner of its base is at any time more than the troop-type's maximum permitted move distance measured in a straight line from where that corner started (Fig.1) and that the element does not make an illegal interpenetration. An element can change direction to pass around a terrain feature or element but not to avoid a TZ.



TZ:

Any move that will enter; or starts in, or at the front edge of, an enemy TZ must:

?           Immediately line up opposite or in front edge-to-front edge combat with the TZ-ing element most directly in             front.

(So stops elephants/chariots recoiling out of a TZ)



 An enemy land element's TZ has no effect if:

?           Your element has a friendly element between it and the enemy and is not in column behind it.



Phil


vexillia

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2009, 09:09:40 AM »
Another post - I dont' actualy understand what's going on with some of these.. :-[

TZ: Any move that will enter; or starts in, or at the front edge of, an enemy TZ must: Immediately line up opposite or in front edge-to-front edge combat with the TZ-ing [sic] element most directly in front.

At least this sorts this out http://tinyurl.com/5enhx2 even if only indirectly.  It also formalises and clarifies this issue http://tinyurl.com/68v655

--
Martin Stephenson
http://vexillia.blogspot.com/
http://pikeandplunder.blogspot.com/

andrew

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2009, 10:38:35 AM »
I don;t mind rules that tidy up areas of debate (e.g. TZ at 80 paces, dog-legs etc) but I'm not sure about the new ambush rule - why 400 paces?  Would it not be simpler to prevent having more than one ambush in a single area feature, rather than an arbitrarily chosen 400 paces?

And the ability to 'block' a TZ with an intervening element will get cheesy.......

MikeCampbell

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2009, 02:18:41 AM »
and some more:

I have concluded that TZ must penetrate other elements, except in one specific case - moving from outside the TZ to end in front edge combat with an element in mutual side edge contact with the TZ-er. Try these.

Phil

MOVING THROUGH GAPS OR PASSING THROUGH FRIENDLY TROOPS

There are only 2 instances in which an element can even partly enter a space insufficient for its own frontage between any of: elements, fortifications, impassable terrain or a battlefield edge.

?           To legally interpenetrate an element in the direction moved or moving through only 1 element corner.



THREAT ZONE (Figs.9,10)

The space immediately in front of an element in which real life opponents would risk being charged suddenly at a disadvantage if they attempt to manoeuvre is called the Threat Zone [TZ]. It extends up to and including 80p straight forward of a visible enemy element's front edge. Any move that will enter, or starts in, an enemy TZ must either:

?           Line up as soon as possible in close combat with, overlapping or opposite the TZ-ing element most                   directly in front.

?           Move from outside the TZ into close combat with an element next to the TZ-ing element.

?           If the only enemy elements whose TZ affects it are to its rear, turn 180?.

?           Move as far as possible straight forward without contacting any enemy except front edge-to-front edge.

?           Follow or move into rear support behind friends at least partly directly in front.

?           Unless in close combat; move only straight back without contacting an enemy edge or corner.

 An enemy land element's TZ has no effect if:

?           It is Hordes (I), Baggage or a routing element.

?           There is any part of a water feature or a friendly fortification or obstacle between.

?           Your element is defending the edge of a terrain feature.

?           Your element is making an outcome move or otherwise fleeing or routing.


MikeCampbell

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Re: Phil's comments about v1.1
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2009, 11:44:04 PM »
From Phil about his recent trip to Historicon:

The most important part of the Historicon trip for this group was the first 1.1 game in America, Tom Thomas with his 100 YW French v me with his 100 YW English.
This was a very long and closely fought battle lasting from 10 in the morning to nearly 3 in the afternoon, so I flagged at times, and my memory of the details is certainly imperfect.

I was defending, and failed to position either of my two bits of boggy flat to my front, but got a wood to rest my left flank on (in which I tucked 2 elements of Irish Ps) and a boggy bit to rest the right flank on (the gap behind it guarded by 2 columns of Welsh spears). I formed up in 3 battles, each of 4 dismounted men at arms flanked by longbows, vaward on the right with high PIPs slightly advanced, then main battle under the C-in-C with second PIPs, then rearward with low PIPs.
Only the C-in-C and rearward general stayed mounted. In some places I had men-at-arms behind archers, but they were mostly on the flanks of each group.

For some reason, Tom did not want to replicate Crecy, so he broke with French tradition by using a sensible deployment, with mixed infantry in front and mounted knights held back in 3 groups in a second line.  I'm a bit hazy as to what and where the infantry were, but there were a lot of Genoese crossbows, a body of Parisian militia pavisiers, dismounted men-at-arms and a lot of ribalds that threatened the wood but progressively died of arrows while approaching it - which was probably their intended function...

The non-combat rule changes of 1.1 did not affect the game, being mainly intended to clear up possible wording confusion and us not being confused. I completely forgot the Sp support changes, to the probable disadvantage of the pavisiers after they made contact. The important changes were to (S) and (I)gradings, which were those trailed here, namely

(S) in distant combat:
+2 if more when shooting, +1 if less when shot at (except by Arty or Shot),

(S) in close combat:
+2 if foot or train and more in own bound against foot.
+1 if mounted or naval and more in own bound.
+1 if equal in own bound and mounted v mounted or foot v foot.
+1 if foot and less in enemy bound.

(I):
-1 if less.

These worked well, but I'm not sure if mounted should get +1 if equal against mounted in own bound. In its favour, it does encourage charging in. Arguments on that are welcome.

The early part of the game was one sided as regards casualties. The Genoese fulfilled their natural function of dying in heaps (though survivors did better when they got to close quarters and started hitting people over the head with their crossbows). The pavisiers and men-at-arms were tough targets (though a couple of the latter surprised me by dying of an excess of 1s) and the main effect of the archery was to break up their formation, enabling the longbows to counterattack with good effect.

Opportunities to do this reduced in the second part of the game, partly due to a dearth of PIP dice, and archer casualties started to mount. The French mounted knights tried to break through their own foot but found interpenetration difficult, and it settled down to a dogged killing match with the honours slightly going to the French. My vaward disheartened their opponents quite early and later broke them, and the rearward managed to dishearten theirs latter in the game. However, the French king finally ground through the centre, breaking my C-in-C's command. This may be partly attributed to the evil omen before the game when my gross carelessness brushed the English C-in-C off the table edge and trampled him, necessitating glue repairs, for which I apologise unreservedly...

At the end, we were still nowhere near a conclusive victory for either side, and a count-up gave a 14-11 in my favour.

My requirements of a game that it should look like a battle and feel like a battle were amply satisfied - I was exhausted at the end.

More general happenings at Historicon. 

Berserk sheep aficionados would have appreciated a lecture on one of the more obscure campaigns of the ACW in which a Confederate mounted force based around the Texas Rangers invaded New Mexico opposed by Union regulars and Colorado militia, both sides largely commanded by quarrelling incompetents. I really felt for the Texan unit that made the only lancer charge of the war against a militia unit that turned out to be the only unit in the war that had practised the drill for forming square, but the highlight was the torpedo mule, loaded with explosives and a slow fuse and driven towards the Texan camp at night. This equivalent of the DB Chinese thunder-bomb oxen had a fatal flaw. Mules are used to hard words and kicks and go home when hungry. Some did, and others stole the food of the Texan cattle herd. So the Colorado camp was first disturbed by exploding mules, then stampeded over by the Texan cattle herds...
......