Moving Mounted Infantry

[vexillia]

Having a "Befuddled" moment here with the section on page 10 and just need to
check some basics:

Issue #1: Movement
--
I reckon the key rule bits are: mounted infantry move as foot unless marching,
interpenetrating, fleeing etc. I interpret this as meaning that mounted
infantry can't move as mounted within 400 paces of any element which would
prevent them marching. Is this right?

Issue #2: Loss of mounts
--
Does the bullet list headed "Dismounter's mounts are permanently removed when:"
apply to mounted infantry? I've assumed so but would like to check.

Issue #3: Loss of mounts
--
The 4th bullet in the the last section on page 10 states "[mounts are lost] when
their owners make a tactical move except to remount ..". This can be
interpreted as meaning that any move within 400 paces of any element which would
prevent them marching results in the loss of mounts. Is this correct?

Because of the "except to remount" bit there's a possibility that issue #3 was
only meant to refer to dismounted cavalry (the main subject of the section)
rather than mounted infantry (which don't need a tactical move to remount).

All help welcome.

[andrew]

#1.  They move as if foot but can stay on their mounts.

#2.  Yes.  Notice the 4th bullet point is an exemption for mounted infantry.

#3.  Depends - are you referring to mounted mounted infantry, or dismounted mounted infantry?  Losing the mounts due to making a tactical move only applies to elements already dismounted.

Not sure I'm following your last point.  Consider also that dismounted elements may end >400 paces away in their own bound, the enemy closes to <400 paces, and the dismounted mounted infantry can then re-mount to maybe run away.......I think all of the exceptions/exemptions are listed within the bullet points......am I understanding your query correctly?

Andrew

[vexillia]

#2.  Yes.  Notice the 4th bullet point is an exemption for mounted infantry.

Only after the first "or" so doesn't exempt them from first half of the bullet or after the second "or". Don't you just love DBMM?

#3.  Depends - are you referring to mounted mounted infantry, or dismounted mounted infantry? 

Mounted infantry with mounts "do not need to dismount/remount".

Consider also that dismounted elements may end >400 paces away in their own bound, the enemy closes to <400 paces, and the dismounted mounted infantry can then re-mount to maybe run away.

If issue #3 is applies then they can't do this as they move as foot with enemy within 400 paces.

[LawrenceG]

#3.  Depends - are you referring to mounted mounted infantry, or dismounted mounted infantry?  Losing the mounts due to making a tactical move only applies to elements already dismounted.

Not sure I'm following your last point.  Consider also that dismounted elements may end >400 paces away in their own bound, the enemy closes to <400 paces, and the dismounted mounted infantry can then re-mount to maybe run away.......I think all of the exceptions/exemptions are listed within the bullet points......am I understanding your query correctly?

Andrew

There's no such thing as mounted or dismounted mounted infantry. There is mounted infantry that has or has not lost its mounts. When it has lost its mounts it becomes infantry. Vexillia was correct on this. If mountd infantry makes a tactical move (or meets any of the other criteria) it loses the mounts. If enemy that stops marching come within 400p, then any move mtd infantry makes will be a tactical move,  so it loses its mounts and moves as foot. If it does not move and the enemy move away, then it still has the mounts so can carry on marching.

Dismounted mounted troops can use a tactical move to remount - i.e. they can get back on their horses in the face of the enemy to become cavalry or knights or whatever they were before they dismounted. In this case, obviously, they don't lose the mounts. This option is not available to mounted infantry as they don't use tactical moves to mount or dismount.

[vexillia]

Thanks for the reply.  On reflection this makes mounted infantry useful to quickly march to engage the enemy and thereafter fight on foot unless the enemy evaporate around them without making contact or shooting at them. 

However, I'm still not 100% happy with this bit:

If mounted infantry makes a tactical move .. it loses the mounts

Probably about 90% happy I suppose. There's a nagging doubt because the section concerned is headed "Dismounter's mounts are permanently lost" and the restriction makes sense for dismounted troops who need to remount.  Also, the paragraph on mounted infantry says nothing about tactical moves and as you say:

There's no such thing as mounted or dismounted mounted infantry. There is mounted infantry that has or has not lost its mounts.

[andrew]

My bad with the terminology mounted/dismounted.....

I'm curious.  Where is the rule that says mounted infantry lose their mount when they make a tactical move?  The rule in question refers to dismounted troops.........

The rules don't say they "become infantry"; it says they move "as infantry".  Does this imply they dismount?  The rule doesn't say actually that.......

Andrew

[LawrenceG]

My bad with the terminology mounted/dismounted.....

I'm curious.  Where is the rule that says mounted infantry lose their mount when they make a tactical move?  The rule in question refers to dismounted troops.........

The rules don't say they "become infantry"; it says they move "as infantry".  Does this imply they dismount?  The rule doesn't say actually that.......

Andrew

The rule in question starts "Dismounters mounts are permantently removed if:" but in bullet 4 there is an exception for march moves "unless mounted infantry". From this we can infer that the rest of the rule does apply to mounted infantry (otherwise there would be no need for an exception).

While the mounted infantry paragraph does not say they "become infantry" it does say they move as foot and fight as foot, which in my opinion makes them identical to foot. Once they have lost their mounts, they clearly cannot be mounted on them, so it does imply they dismount.

[MikeCampbell]

Issue #1: Movement
--
I reckon the key rule bits are: mounted infantry move as foot unless marching,
interpenetrating, fleeing etc. I interpret this as meaning that mounted
infantry can't move as mounted within 400 paces of any element which would
prevent them marching. Is this right?

Just an issue with the wording here....your conclusion that they cannot march within 400p of enemy [of types that prevent marches...] is not quite right, although yuo are thinking along the right lines.

March moves cannot START within 400p of enemy - so mounted infantry starting outside 400p of enemy can march closer than 400p just like any other toops marching in those circumstances.

Mounted infantry aren't quite so useful in DBMM as they were in DBM - they counted as Cv(O) in DBM so avoided PIP penalties & I used them a lot.  Moving as Cv(I) in DBMM means they have PIP penalties for irregular ineptness, & this plus the greater relative move of infantry compared to table size means I haven't used them much since trying them out in the early days.

IMO the bullet points at the bottom of page 10 clearly apply to monuted infantry - they are "foot" except in circumstances listed in the para above the bullets, and if they have additional mount  bases then they are provided "as above" (2nd line of that para)  - ie as per such bases for dismounted cavalry and therefore using the same rules.

[LawrenceG]

Issue #1: Movement
--
I reckon the key rule bits are: mounted infantry move as foot unless marching,
interpenetrating, fleeing etc. I interpret this as meaning that mounted
infantry can't move as mounted within 400 paces of any element which would
prevent them marching. Is this right?

Just an issue with the wording here....your conclusion that they cannot march within 400p of enemy [of types that prevent marches...] is not quite right, although yuo are thinking along the right lines.

March moves cannot START within 400p of enemy - so mounted infantry starting outside 400p of enemy can march closer than 400p just like any other toops marching in those circumstances.

Mounted infantry aren't quite so useful in DBMM as they were in DBM - they counted as Cv(O) in DBM so avoided PIP penalties & I used them a lot.  Moving as Cv(I) in DBMM means they have PIP penalties for irregular ineptness, & this plus the greater relative move of infantry compared to table size means I haven't used them much since trying them out in the early days.

IMO the bullet points at the bottom of page 10 clearly apply to monuted infantry - they are "foot" except in circumstances listed in the para above the bullets, and if they have additional mount  bases then they are provided "as above" (2nd line of that para)  - ie as per such bases for dismounted cavalry and therefore using the same rules.

The ineptness is a bit of a pain, but if you work it right you can march from 400p to 160p and then it's only a single tactical move into combat. In DBM you had to stop 2 tactical moves away from the enemy, so that is an improvement of sorts for mounted close combat foot. Of course, if the enemy moves to 399p then you have a problem. Mounted bow used to be really useful as you could march up to bow range and start shooting next turn (which you can still do). I think the way mounted infantry work in DBMM is probably more historical than DBM. I don't think there are any historical examples of mounted infantry manoeuvring on the battlefield. They rode to the battlefield and possibly to their deployment locations and then fought the battle itself on foot.

[arvnranger]

The ineptness is a bit of a pain, but if you work it right you can march from 400p to 160p and then it's only a single tactical move into combat.

[it] March moves must start further than 400p.

Cheers,
Ivan.

[andrew]

While the mounted infantry paragraph does not say they "become infantry" it does say they move as foot and fight as foot, which in my opinion makes them identical to foot. Once they have lost their mounts, they clearly cannot be mounted on them, so it does imply they dismount.

I think the rules on single element moves on page 28 supports the assumption they dismount - but it isn't stated when mounted infantry automatically dismount.  So I'm (sort of) happy to stand corrected on this.  The trouble is the rules don't specifically state mounted infantry dismount when they make a tactical move.  If it did we can then look to the rules on page 10 and accept that any tactical move results in the mount being lost, but the rules don't actually state when mounted infantry must dismount.  This is inferred on page 28 but not explicitly stated. 

The rule in question starts "Dismounters mounts are permanently removed if:" but in bullet 4 there is an exception for march moves "unless mounted infantry". From this we can infer that the rest of the rule does apply to mounted infantry (otherwise there would be no need for an exception).

The angle I was coming from with that query was on the basis the mounted infantry weren't dismounted........

However, the rule higher up on page 10 states "While they have their mounts..." suggests they cannot voluntarily dismount post deployment to elect to move as if foot.  While they have their mounts they must move as the mounted element.  Yet the PIP expenditure rules on page 27 and the flee/rout rules on page 41 suggest they can dismount.......which isn't supported by the rule on page 10 that starts with the sentence "While they have their mounts...".   

Andrew

[vexillia]

I think the way mounted infantry work in DBMM is probably more historical than DBM. I don't think there are any historical examples of mounted infantry manoeuvring on the battlefield. They rode to the battlefield and possibly to their deployment locations and then fought the battle itself on foot.

I tend to agree. Now if I can just clear up the rules bit 

[LawrenceG]

While the mounted infantry paragraph does not say they "become infantry" it does say they move as foot and fight as foot, which in my opinion makes them identical to foot. Once they have lost their mounts, they clearly cannot be mounted on them, so it does imply they dismount.

I think the rules on single element moves on page 28 supports the assumption they dismount - but it isn't stated when mounted infantry automatically dismount.  So I'm (sort of) happy to stand corrected on this.  The trouble is the rules don't specifically state mounted infantry dismount when they make a tactical move.  If it did we can then look to the rules on page 10 and accept that any tactical move results in the mount being lost, but the rules don't actually state when mounted infantry must dismount.  This is inferred on page 28 but not explicitly stated. 

The rule in question starts "Dismounters mounts are permanently removed if:" but in bullet 4 there is an exception for march moves "unless mounted infantry". From this we can infer that the rest of the rule does apply to mounted infantry (otherwise there would be no need for an exception).

The angle I was coming from with that query was on the basis the mounted infantry weren't dismounted........

However, the rule higher up on page 10 states "While they have their mounts..." suggests they cannot voluntarily dismount post deployment to elect to move as if foot.  While they have their mounts they must move as the mounted element.  Yet the PIP expenditure rules on page 27 and the flee/rout rules on page 41 suggest they can dismount.......which isn't supported by the rule on page 10 that starts with the sentence "While they have their mounts...".   

Andrew

 Mounted infantry "remount and dismount automatically" but the occasions on which they do this are not spelled out explicitly. You have to use your common sense. They automatically dismount when they do anything "as foot" and remount automatically when they do anything as Cm or Cv(I). You don't think, for example, that mounted Ax can remain mounted when making a tactical move through difficult going, thus giving the horses a mystical ability to double their speed? 

The rule intention is quite clear when you think about it. I agree that the wording could be improved though.

[MikeCampbell]

That's because they do not mount and dismount - they are treated as foot in some circumstances, and as mounted in others.

People keep trying to treat them the same as dismounting mounted troops (!) - but they are not - the ruels are different although some aspects of them are similar.

for example elements of mounts (ie riderless horses + holder) - mounted troops who dismount have these, and so can mounted infantry, but they do 2 differetn things.

For hte mounted troops they allow remounting to become mounted again - but for the infantry they allow faster move in some circumstances - they are never used for mounting or dismounting in the way of cavalry (or Kn, etc).

The trick to understanding mounted infantry is to realise that they are NOT dismounted cavalry - they can be depicted similarly, but behave differently.  the ruels are under the same heading, but they are different for each!

[LawrenceG]

By the way, has anyone figured out the significance of the wording "they deploy as mounted" on page 10?

I think it may be a fossil left over from a previous draft of the rules in which mounted troops had a different deployment zone from foot.

Alternatively, is it intended that mounted light foot can only be deployed in the heavy troops zone (where Cv(I) or Cm can be deployed)? That seems to be the implication of the rule as written, although it probably makes mounted Ax and Ps less useful than their pedestrian counterparts.