DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: landmeister on September 10, 2008, 11:00:47 PM
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Hi all,
Please, look at diagram 1 enclosed. Element B is irrLH(S) moving spontaneously. Now, please correct me. I have the folloing options:
1. If I move straight ahead, I will contact the left front corner of X, so I will have to line up with it.
2. If I don?t move straight ahead, but "...move my front edge into contact with the closest enemy element in reach part of which is directly in front...", then I contact Y so I must line up. This is a very wierd situation, as it implies that a sponno doesn?t to move straight ahead always, just when you choose to at least when the enemy is in reach! ???
3. I can?t contact the flank of X due to the presence of Y. Not by Y?s TZ, just because Y is in front and in reach. If Y wasn?t there then B could choose a flank attack.
Are all points correct?
Thank you very much in advance
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1/ I'm not sure that you stop at contact with the corner of X because a move ends when you pivot on contact with enemy, and the bit about moving into overlap specifies the front edge - not the front corner - the front corner is NOT part of hte front edge in DBMM.
2/ It means you move into contact. Sponno moves do NOT have to be straight ahead - that is just one option.
3/ I think this is both right and wrong - it could pivot to hit the flank of X (2nd to last bullet at the bottom of the page), but Y's TZ does actually prevent it if close enough (last para on page 30)
assuming the flank of B is lined up EXACTLY with the flank of X (from previous combat for example), it is arguable that no part of X is directly in front of B, and therefore Y is the target because part of it IS directly in front of B.
Also I'm pretty sure PB has said on the list somewhere that troops no longer stop at overlap when advancing spontaneously - but I'll have to go look that up....
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> A final question - does front corner to front corner contact (i.e. the
> basic
> overlap position) count as contacting enemy?. This also has implications
> for spontaneous moves.
>
Check if the rules say "any contact" (as they sometimes do) or "edge and
corner" contact.
In DBM, sponno automatically stop when they first reach an overlap
position - even if the enemy C-in-C is in reach with his back turned just a
little way away. In DBMM, you can ignore the overlap completely and go
straight on if you choose, or move into frontal contact with one enemy and
flank to flank with the original one. And you do not have to go nuts trying
to measure "Minimum distance between furthest apart front corners" for each
sponno element. Until you get into contact, straight ahead is always the
easiest option.
-mssg 54615
not sure if it helps.....
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Hi again Mike. I see you're the only one member available in this Rules forum! ;D
1/ I'm not sure that you stop at contact with the corner of X because a move ends when you pivot on contact with enemy, and the bit about moving into overlap specifies the front edge - not the front corner - the front corner is NOT part of hte front edge in DBMM.
This is how I can defend this position. a) Page 30. Last bullet in the page:"[A sponno]...ends its move when [...] contacts friends it cannot pass through or enemy". This contact is not specified, just contact. b) Commentary (on DBMM page 33). "A corner is not part of an edge. However, "EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP..." merely specifies "contacting or contacted". Moving a corner into contact with a corner is "contacting", so extra move can be used to line up."
My reading is that no matter how you cantact your enemy. Your sponno move is immediately finished once you contact it. THEN you must use the 80 p estra move to line up. The extra move IS NOT part of the sponno move.
2/ It means you move into contact. Sponno moves do NOT have to be straight ahead - that is just one option.
Wow! :o I've been playing them with straight trajectories towards their targets. Now thay can move zigzag while you finally contact the enemy!! ;D :o
3/ I think this is both right and wrong - it could pivot to hit the flank of X (2nd to last bullet at the bottom of the page), but Y's TZ does actually prevent it if close enough (last para on page 30)
I know that. What I want to know is what happens when the enemy TZ is far away but the sponno still can reach the front enemy (eg LH (F)). Must I contact it because it's in front? I guess so, so in this case I can't contact the flank of X. Right?
assuming the flank of B is lined up EXACTLY with the flank of X (from previous combat for example), it is arguable that no part of X is directly in front of B, and therefore Y is the target because part of it IS directly in front of B.
Yes, but is this applicable even Y's TZ is not avoiding a flank contact on X?
Thank you.
Also I'm pretty sure PB has said on the list somewhere that troops no longer stop at overlap when advancing spontaneously - but I'll have to go look that up....
?)('
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Hi
I am on forum and available but just dont know the answers to your queries :)
In fact the whole 'corner to corner = contact' concept is new to me never mind adding sponno to the mix :o
Cheers
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I just have a couple of minutes so I am only going to reply to 1 point at the moment ('ll need to spend more time reading the whole thing again :))
My reading is that no matter how you cantact your enemy. Your sponno move is immediately finished once you contact it.
I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is pretty clear.
Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or slide along the front, but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.
the corner-corner contact = contact is new for me too...but it's pretty simple IMO & no great bother.
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I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is pretty clear.
Sorry, but could you tell me why is it so clear? I can't find it in the rules ???
Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or slide along the front, but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.
I understant the logic of it but I can't see why the front edge must come into contact.
the corner-corner contact = contact is new for me too...but it's pretty simple IMO & no great bother.
Same to me. But this comes from Phil himself. :o
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Hi Mike
>I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is >pretty clear.
Hmmm I am not so sure as the final set of bullet points ref sponno moves say that movement stops at various points including when pivoting.
Does not seem confined to front edge only in fact this is one of those aspects that corner contact seems to cover ?
>Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or >slide along the front,
Using the final set of bullet points in sponno section I dont agree that you can end up on flank as it says (penultimate bullet point) that sponno element MUST pivot to end PARALLEL with an ENEMY element that make contact with (no mention of front edge only), flank contact would not be parallel ? I assume one must spend Pips to obtain a flank contact rather then 'free' move with sponno ?
>but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in
>front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.
Again I am confused as the final set of bullet points indicates that a sponno move stops at contact with enemy so if corner to corner is now classed as contact then a sponno move stops there potentially (ie in overlap posistion)
>the corner-corner contact = contact is new for me too...but it's pretty simple IMO & no great bother.
We are finding far from simple at times especially with sponno troops.......................
Cheers
Gary
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Hi everybody,
Most spontanious moves are 'straight ahead' or 'into contact (or overlap) with the closest enemy in reach part of which is directly in front'. So a spontanious element most likely wants to rush in straight forward (towards an enemy it wants to crush).
First I realy don't think that it stops when its side-edge contacts an enemy side-edge, then even 80p extra won't be sufficient (Pythagoras) to contact the enemy side-edge, so I agree with Mike that it only stops when its front edge contacts enemy.
Second I think that front-corner to front-corner contact isn't enough to allow the extra 80p movement to slide in front-edge to front-edge contact. The only way to get front-corner to front-corner contact is when one of the party's already lined-up before. For example I don't think it is the meaning of the rules that an element, which destroyes its opponent and doesn't pursuit, can slide sideways again (and again) to attack the former neighbours of its opponent(s) in front-edge to front-edge combat.
B should be attacking Y.
But only if Y is out of reach it can choose to move straight ahead as far as possible or attack X in front or flank by moving not straight ahead.
Greetings,
Marcel
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Hi Gary,
Hmmm I am not so sure as the final set of bullet points ref sponno moves say that movement stops at various points including when pivoting.
Does not seem confined to front edge only in fact this is one of those aspects that corner contact seems to cover ?
Phil says so, or at least the Commantery says that Phil says so.
Using the final set of bullet points in sponno section I dont agree that you can end up on flank as it says (penultimate bullet point) that sponno element MUST pivot to end PARALLEL with an ENEMY element that make contact with (no mention of front edge only), flank contact would not be parallel ? I assume one must spend Pips to obtain a flank contact rather then 'free' move with sponno ?
The final set of bullets specify the distance and the end of sponnos. You must read the previous set that specify the direction. Second bullet: your front edge must go towards the closest enemy in front or in reach. Some times you can reach only by a flank or rear attack. Otherwise these sponno moves would be impossible!
Again I am confused as the final set of bullet points indicates that a sponno move stops at contact with enemy so if corner to corner is now classed as contact then a sponno move stops there potentially (ie in overlap posistion)
This is how I read it.
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Hi Marcel
Most spontanious moves are 'straight ahead' or 'into contact (or overlap) with the closest enemy in reach part of which is directly in front'. So a spontanious element most likely wants to rush in straight forward (towards an enemy it wants to crush).
Sure, but you're not compelled to move straight forward. I agree with Mike. The second bullet allows you to contact anyone in reach, no matter the trajectory (except for enemy TZ, of course)
First I realy don't think that it stops when its side-edge contacts an enemy side-edge, then even 80p extra won't be sufficient (Pythagoras) to contact the enemy side-edge, so I agree with Mike that it only stops when its front edge contacts enemy.
As Mike said, the sponno is not compelled to move straight forward, so that I can choose an alternative trajectory in a way that my closest front corners contacts the enemy flank (they will not be parallel). This way Pithagoras can't avoid a flank contact because then my furthest front corner will be able to arrive. My front edge is contacting the flank after moving the 80 p, so where's the problem?
Second I think that front-corner to front-corner contact isn't enough to allow the extra 80p movement to slide in front-edge to front-edge contact. The only way to get front-corner to front-corner contact is when one of the party's already lined-up before. For example I don't think it is the meaning of the rules that an element, which destroyes its opponent and doesn't pursuit, can slide sideways again (and again) to attack the former neighbours of its opponent(s) in front-edge to front-edge combat.
Mmmmm...you're right :-\. But then why Phil has said so? ???
B should be attacking Y.
But only if Y is out of reach it can choose to move straight ahead as far as possible or attack X in front or flank by moving not straight ahead.
I must admit that this sounds very logical, so I can't understand why Phil allows it. ???
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Hi Landmeister,
Most spontanious moves are 'straight ahead' or 'into contact (or overlap) with the closest enemy in reach part of which is directly in front'. So a spontanious element most likely wants to rush in straight forward (towards an enemy it wants to crush).
Sure, but you're not compelled to move straight forward. I agree with Mike. The second bullet allows you to contact anyone in reach, no matter the trajectory (except for enemy TZ, of course)
If there is an enemy element directly in front you are compelled to move straight forward (1st bullet) or to this enemy element (2nd bullet). You can only attack other elements if there is no enemy element directly in front within reach.
Greetings,
Marcel
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Ok. So the final question is, when is the corner to corner contact used? Phil's message in the Commentary is clear, it is a contacted element, so the 80 p nove must be used.
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I think this is definitely wrong - the move only ends when hte FRONT EDGE comes into contact - that much is pretty clear.
Sorry, but could you tell me why is it so clear? I can't find it in the rules ???
Page 30, bottom set of bullet popints, last bullet point - a spono move ends "when it....(b) pivots to conform to friends or enemy it contacts" - so the contact itself doesn't end it - the pivoting does - and pivoting to contact enemy is effectively ending in front edge contact.
Certainly if you stop in corner contact (for any reason) you CAN use the extra movement to wheel into the flank or slide along the front, but as you say the extra move is not part of the spono move...and because you are not in front edge contact at that point the spono move has NOT ended and must keep going.
I understant the logic of it but I can't see why the front edge must come into contact.
Because there's no rule saying that you stop if you just get corner contact.
You can advance to front edge contact - that's a specific allowed spono move and so when you make that front edge contact the move ends.
Or you can advance straight ahead - in which case the move "...must be the full permitted tactical move distance, except..." (pg 30, above the last set of bullet points) - and none of the exceptions are corner-to-corner contact. tehrefore you msut keep advancing.
Sorry if this is going back a bit far...
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Ok. So the final question is, when is the corner to corner contact used? Phil's message in the Commentary is clear, it is a contacted element, so the 80 p nove must be used.
I read 'up to an extra 1 base width' as 79.9999999999999999 p. My English dictionary says it would be otherwise up to ..... and including/inclusive.
Think about what this means.
Greetings,
Marcel
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Yes "up to" can be inclusive (so up to 80p includes 80p) or exclusive (up to 80p = a max of 79.99999....p)
Inclusive is the normal English usage, and the inclusions of "(80p)" in the rule IMO shows that this is the case here too.
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Inclusive is the normal English usage, and the inclusions of "(80p)" in the rule IMO shows that this is the case here too.
Thanks Mike, this little differance (0,00000000000...1 p) has great consequences. :-\
But that is a different topic I think, maybe you can look at my new topic "Storming Fortifications" in which I use that information in some other way.
Greetings,
Marcel
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Page 30, bottom set of bullet popints, last bullet point - a spono move ends "when it....(b) pivots to conform to friends or enemy it contacts" - so the contact itself doesn't end it - the pivoting does - and pivoting to contact enemy is effectively ending in front edge contact.
And what happens to: "a) contact friends it cannot pass through or enemy"? I seems pretty clear, the sponno move is finished when you contact enemy. No pivoting is needed in this case.
Because there's no rule saying that you stop if you just get corner contact.
Same answer. Point a) specifies that you end your move when you contact an enemy.
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Do'h!!
you're right - I'd completely mised that!! :/
OK - forget everythign I said - you HAVE to stop when you get o corner contact!! :)
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OK - forget everythign I said - you HAVE to stop when you get o corner contact!! :)
..... and contacting B has to shift sideways exactly 80p (=up to 80 p ;)) in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with X or if this isn't possible, due to A, contacted X has to shift sideways exactly 80p in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with B!? Right?
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..... and contacting B has to shift sideways exactly 80p (=up to 80 p ;)) in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with X or if this isn't possible, due to A, contacted X has to shift sideways exactly 80p in front-edge-to-front-edge contact with B!? Right?
Why can't B line up with X? The position of A is just 3 cm away from X. According to figure 23 on page 60, B can do it, so there's no need to do the opposite.
This raises a world of interesting questions. For example, if a corner is not a front edge, are all exceptions of enemy elements being lined up to my element applicable? Initially not. This means that my element must always line up as it is the moving one. Can you begin to see the consequences? :-\
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I dont' try to 2nd guess people - if you think there are consequences then please just say what you think they are & I'm happy to comment - I may even get it right...
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THe paragraph with "It's direction must be..." tells you the allowed moves.
THe paragraph below, last bullet, tells you when you can stop.
If you choose the "Move its front edge into contact or overlap" option, you can't stop before you are in contact or overlap AND it must be contact or overlap with the element specified. In your example this stops you from contacting the flank of X. The "Stop" criterion will normally be (b).
If you choose "move straight ahead" then you can stop when you contact enemy, including corner to corner. In this case I think the previous bullet obliges you to pivot until parallel (IMO this means the same or opposite facing, not 90 degrees for a flank contact) although then you would not be moving straight ahead, so maybe not. After the end of the sponno move, you might be able to use the 80p extra move to get into front edge contact with the flank and certainly the front.
By the way, this concept that the 80p move is a separate move, not part of the preceeding move, is rather alien to me. So we have tactical, march, spontaneous, outcome and extra moves and you can always add an extra move after any of the other kinds of move. Are you sure it's right?
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Quote from: landmeister on September 18, 2008, 07:52:34 PM
Why can't B line up with X? The position of A is just 3 cm away from X. According to figure 23 on page 60, B can do it, so there's no need to do the opposite.
If there is enough room between X and A you are totaly right.
Quote from: landmeister on September 18, 2008, 07:52:34 PM
For example, if a corner is not a front edge, are all exceptions of enemy elements being lined up to my element applicable? Initially not. This means that my element must always line up as it is the moving one. Can you begin to see the consequences?
Sorry I don't know exactly what you mean.
But about the whole situation. By seeing corner-to-corner contact as contact followed by the possibility of moving 80p (not a fraction less) by one of both parties there will be much less possibilities to explore gaps in the enemy line.
I rather see:
1. An spontanious element rushes in until its front edge reaches the enemy
2. The extra movement doesn't includes 80p, so it is a maximum of 79.99999999999...p
I believe that Phil had fig. 11 (p. 56) in mind when he said that corner-to-corner contact was contact, not a corner-to-corner contact where both partys are not even in each others threatzone.
Just some thoughts!
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I dont' try to 2nd guess people - if you think there are consequences then please just say what you think they are & I'm happy to comment - I may even get it right...
Yes, sorry. ;D The terrible consequences are those deatiled by Marcel Bos in reply#8 of this thread (see above). Now, every time your opponent element is destroyed repuled or fled, you're automatically in contact corner to corner with the enemy element that is overlapping you, so you must line up front to front with it! :-[
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If you choose "move straight ahead" then you can stop when you contact enemy, including corner to corner.
No, you must stop. You must stop when you contact enemy, so you cannot go on.
In this case I think the previous bullet obliges you to pivot until parallel (IMO this means the same or opposite facing, not 90 degrees for a flank contact) although then you would not be moving straight ahead, so maybe not. After the end of the sponno move, you might be able to use the 80p extra move to get into front edge contact with the flank and certainly the front.
I agree. From a strictly trigonometrical point of view, I can't use the 80 p (too far to be legal) to contact the flank if I stop corner to corner, so it must be a front-to front contact. I think this point is at least finally solved! ;D
By the way, this concept that the 80p move is a separate move, not part of the preceeding move, is rather alien to me. So we have tactical, march, spontaneous, outcome and extra moves and you can always add an extra move after any of the other kinds of move. Are you sure it's right?
Sure. Page 33, EXTRA MOVEMENT TO LINE UP IN CLOSE COMBAT. Last sentence: "This can be in either side's bound, is extra to normal maximum move, and expends no extra pips.
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Sorry I don't know exactly what you mean.
Sorry. I mean those cases when is the enemy who must line up and not the moving element.
But about the whole situation. By seeing corner-to-corner contact as contact followed by the possibility of moving 80p (not a fraction less) by one of both parties there will be much less possibilities to explore gaps in the enemy line.
I agree. This is another of the terrible consequences you foresaw a few messages before. Now all corner to corner contacts are future front to front contacts! :-[
I rather see:
1. An spontanious element rushes in until its front edge reaches the enemy
2. The extra movement doesn't includes 80p, so it is a maximum of 79.99999999999...p
No. The extra moves is designed to be 80 p just because it is thought to allow legal contacts.
I believe that Phil had fig. 11 (p. 56) in mind when he said that corner-to-corner contact was contact, not a corner-to-corner contact where both partys are not even in each others threatzone.
Just some thoughts!
I would prefer this interpretation, believe me. Can anyone try to pass this question to the author, please.
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I agree. This is another of the terrible consequences you foresaw a few messages before. Now all corner to corner contacts are future front to front contacts!
Yes - Phil has said this on the DBMM list.
It's not a great problem - it is different from how it "used to be", but once you accept it life goes on just fine.
As for the suggestion that breakthroughs cannot now be made because corner-to-corner contact means you have to line up........there's alsways the option to spend PIPs to move through the gap!!
Remember this thread is only talking about spontaneous advances - and one of the things that has happened with these is that they are much more limted than they used to be - if you dont' spend PIPs on yuor impetuous troops then there's only a handful of options that can happen - so yes, if yuo dont' spend PIPs to move through a gap in the enemy line your troops will possibly not do it with spontaneous advances.
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Hi chaps
>As for the suggestion that breakthroughs cannot now be made because corner-to-corner contact means you have >to line up........
Hmmm I dont agree that once a corner-to-corner contact means you MUST line up.
Compulsory lining up is surely only related to TZs for which IIRC such corner contact (or flank edge) does not count ?
I told you this was a rather confusing new twist to how the game is played ;D
Cheers
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IMO it is compulsory - the wording is:
""...element or group that is not lined up moves up to..."
Note that it "moves" - not that it "can move" or "is allowed to move" - the wording is prescriptive - ie it tells you what you do, not what your options are.
But I don't think it is confusing if people read what is actually there.
A lot of the "problems" with DBMM IMO come down to people not wanting to believe the rules - they've done things some other way (either in other rules or due to mis-reading) and would rather keep doign it that way.
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Hi Mike
>But I don't think it is confusing if people read what is actually there.
Ah well and here is crux of problem with corner to corner contact for me, ie its not actually in the rules only mentioned in a forum discussion contribution from Phil and included in the Commentary. ;)
>A lot of the "problems" with DBMM IMO come down to people not wanting to believe the rules - they've done >things some other way (either in other rules or due to mis-reading) and would rather keep doign it that way.
Partly I agree (very hard intially to leave 15yrs of DBM behind) but the rules could have more clarity on several issues. Take for instance the long debate re 'dog-leg' moves; I still believe the rules as written dont allow them (except in 'formation change' type specific instances) but players allow(want) them as a legacy from DBM and again it required a clarification from Phil to prove to me (at least) that his 'intent' was to allow them dispite actual wording of rules and diagramatic example (ie Fig 1).
Question ref corner to corner stuff
I have line of 2 elements (A & B) that impact a line of 3 elements X,Y & Z :
A B
X Y Z
B destroys Y but does not pursue leaving :
A B
X - Z
what happens now in X & Zs move ? is Z contacted as 'in contact' and therefore is 'compelled' to line up with B ?
As a further query if Z is a sponno element what can/does it do ?
Cheers
Gary
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As I read it you have the option of sliding Z across to the front of B, or pivoting onto its flank.
all for 0 PIPs.
If impetuous you have the same options - you cannot make any spontaneous move because you are in contact and that ends your spono move.
Edit: It's been pointed out already that you cannot swing onto a flank with an 80p move - the geometry doesn't allow it (ie any pivot onto a flank from a position where the front ranks are aligned takes more than 80p)
This applies to both impetuous and non-impetuous elements IMO - since any impetuous move ends when you contact enemy - and yuo already start in such contact so there is no move to be made.
So to swing onto a flank from this position you must spend PIPs.
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Hi Mike,
As I read it you have the option of sliding Z across to the front of B, or pivoting onto its flank.
all for 0 PIPs.
I am in doubt. Z is not contacting or contacted or TZ-ed this bound but already 'in contact'.
Maybe this is the reason why elements can't shift sideways without spending PIP's to the next enemy when they have destroyed there own in front of them.
If impetuous you have the same options - you cannot make any spontaneous move because you are in contact and that ends your spono move.
How about pivoting around the point of contact?
But I don't think it is confusing if people read what is actually there.
I always try. ;D
But sometimes by reading it to carefully you can't play anymore.
For example: "A spontanious move ends when it contacts friends it cannot pass trough." Wb can never pass through Wb, right? So a group of Wb can never go spontanious! Just rubbish! It means of course friends which the spontanious element has to pass through, according to the direction it moves, but can't.
Sometimes you have to read between the lines.
So I still have hope that you were right Mike earlier in this discussion and that B had to contact Y in the original question from Landmeister. :-\
Marcel
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As for the suggestion that breakthroughs cannot now be made because corner-to-corner contact means you have to line up........there's alsways the option to spend PIPs to move through the gap!!
Remember this thread is only talking about spontaneous advances - and one of the things that has happened with these is that they are much more limted than they used to be - if you dont' spend PIPs on yuor impetuous troops then there's only a handful of options that can happen - so yes, if yuo dont' spend PIPs to move through a gap in the enemy line your troops will possibly not do it with spontaneous advances.
But isn't is "immediate"? I mean that you can't finish your bound in a corner to corner contact only, even after destroying your opponent. Remember that: "A contacting, contacted od Tzed element must line up...". No matter if you moved there this bound or just were there from a previous one, you are contacting or contacted, so you must line up now (i.e. immediatly after you are contacted or having contacted).
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IMO it is compulsory - the wording is:
""...element or group that is not lined up moves up to..."
Note that it "moves" - not that it "can move" or "is allowed to move" - the wording is prescriptive - ie it tells you what you do, not what your options are.
I agree. This is way it must be an immediate action, because you do it when conditions are met (contacting, contacted or TZed), not before or after.
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As I read it you have the option of sliding Z across to the front of B, or pivoting onto its flank.
all for 0 PIPs.
I disagree. You cannot pivot onto the flank for 0 PIPs for the reason specified below.
If impetuous you have the same options - you cannot make any spontaneous move because you are in contact and that ends your spono move.
I disagree again for the same reason. The 80 p free move is limited to a front to front move only in this case, but I agree that there's is no sponno move in this situation because the element is in contact. Rules anr not ambiguous in this situation...at all thanks God! :D
Edit: It's been pointed out already that you cannot swing onto a flank with an 80p move - the geometry doesn't allow it (ie any pivot onto a flank from a position where the front ranks are aligned takes more than 80p)
Yes. Maths almost never lie ;D
This applies to both impetuous and non-impetuous elements IMO - since any impetuous move ends when you contact enemy - and yuo already start in such contact so there is no move to be made.
Yes. There's no distinction. All 80 p free move restrictions are equally applicable to spontaneous and not spontaneous moves.
So to swing onto a flank from this position you must spend PIPs.
I agree again.
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I am in doubt. Z is not contacting or contacted or TZ-ed this bound but already 'in contact'.
Maybe this is the reason why elements can't shift sideways without spending PIP's to the next enemy when they have destroyed there own in front of them.
I think this is the key of this it all! When must be the conditions for a free move met? IMO If you have contacted the corner this bound, it is applicable this bound, even if you have destroyed your frontal opponent. But then this means that every time your opponent recoils you must move to the next front-to-front contact and so losing every ovelap!! ??? :o
How about pivoting around the point of contact?
You can certainly pivot, but not with a 80 p free move. You must spend PIps or let it sponno.
I always try. ;D
But sometimes by reading it to carefully you can't play anymore.
I think you are right, Marcel. But remember that Barkerese is designed to be read literally!! :-\ :'(
For example: "A spontanious move ends when it contacts friends it cannot pass trough." Wb can never pass through Wb, right? So a group of Wb can never go spontanious! Just rubbish! It means of course friends which the spontanious element has to pass through, according to the direction it moves, but can't.
This is not exact. Wb can't pass through previously moved friendly Wb, so yes, they can pass thorugh sponno if you don't move them! ;D
So I still have hope that you were right Mike earlier in this discussion and that B had to contact Y in the original question from Landmeister. :-\
I think that I will ignore the will of the Phil included in the Commentary until it is specifically included in the rules. >:(
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But isn't is "immediate"? I mean that you can't finish your bound in a corner to corner contact only, even after destroying your opponent. Remember that: "A contacting, contacted od Tzed element must line up...". No matter if you moved there this bound or just were there from a previous one, you are contacting or contacted, so you must line up now (i.e. immediatly after you are contacted or having contacted).
I don't think it is regardless of the stage of the bound.
It is part of movement, not part of combat and comes under part 2 of hte sequence on page 26.
Part 3 & 4 of the sequence are combat and outcome moves, and this is not an outcome move.
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Mike,
I saw your question in the Yahoo DBMM list. What's the consensus there so far? I can't follow all responses. :P
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Neither can I!! ::)
Dunno - for some people it seems to be "yeah...fine..no problem", others have problems with it....
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Could somenone try a direct contact to The Source? I've sent several emails to Phil but he simply ignores them or just can't get through his spam filters :-[