DBMM Forum
General Category => Rules Questions => Topic started by: Sgt Steiner on April 07, 2007, 11:25:27 AM
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Hi
Quick query to make sure I am getting the new Pip costs correct (I confuse myself with DBM legacy)
If Irr group (all Cav(S) not in column) moves :
A. A full move straight ahead this cost 1 Pip
B. If it moves straight but less than full this costs 2 Pips ?
C. If it wheels a full move on one flank this 3 Pips ?
D. If it wheels less than full move this costs 4 Pips ?
Cheers
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A) Correct
B) 3 pips I think. one for the move, one for both corners moving less then max, one for clumsy irreg doing so
C) Correct
D) Not sure about it costing 4 pips. To me, "both corners move less than full move" doesn't apply to a partial wheel, as one corner doesn't move. I think this would be 3 pips, one for moving, one for the wheel, one for clumsy irregular wheeling.
If you combined the wheel with a partial move straight ahead, and still didn't move your full move allowance, eg you moved ahead 80p then wheeled one corner 100p, I think that would be 4 pips. one for the move, one for the wheel, one for both corners not moving max, one for clumsy irreg. I'm pretty sure that irregular ineptness only applies once, not once for each evolution.
Hope I've got it right!
Bryan
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Hi
ta for reply
B. is costly and hard to cast off old DBM Pip costs from my tiny brain ;D
Re the Irr Inept costs I also think (ie hope) they only apply once not 1 per multiple cause (not that clear from rules)
Cheers
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IMO I think you got it right Bryan, in the rules it states under 'Irregular Ineptness'
'Performs any evolution of those listed immediately above'
I think that it would state each instead of any if otherwise :)
David
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D) Not sure about it costing 4 pips. To me, "both corners move less than full move" doesn't apply to a partial wheel, as one corner doesn't move. I think this would be 3 pips, one for moving, one for the wheel, one for clumsy irregular wheeling.
Now I'm even less sure about this one. On the oz_dbm list when I posed this question, someone was astounded that I would think that the inside corner of a wheeling group doesn't move.
How are people playing this? That is, does a partial wheel - where the inside corner remains stationery apart from being the point around which the group pivots, and the outside corner moves less than full distance - constitute both corners moving less than maximum distance, or not?
Bryan
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Now I'm even less sure about this one. On the oz_dbm list when I posed this question, someone was astounded that I would think that the inside corner of a wheeling group doesn't move.
How are people playing this? That is, does a partial wheel - where the inside corner remains stationery apart from being the point around which the group pivots, and the outside corner moves less than full distance - constitute both corners moving less than maximum distance, or not?
Bryan
The way I read it, if the outside element of the group wheeling moves maximum distance with the outside corner, then it doesn't incur the additional PIP penalty. The inside corner on which it pivots is a re herring, as the rules for a short move only apply if both front corners don't move full distance.
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Doug,
I agree, that if the outside corner wheels full distance then it is not a short move and the inside corner doesn't come into it. But what about if the outside corner DOES move short, eg Cv(O) only wheeling say 80p? In that case it would be a DE if the pivoting inside corner is deemed to be moving, but not if it is considered to be stationery
Bryan
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Bunwin
As far as I'm concerned, if a group is wheeling, the inner corner has moved less than its full move.
Harsh maybe, but wheeling a wide group is a surprisingly hard thing to do, if you've ever done much in the way of close order drill.
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Barritus
I agree, a partial wheel should cost an extra PIP. What I'm saying is that the rule doesn't say that. Phil has used the word corner, and a corner is a point, which doesn't move during the wheel. At the end of a wheel, the corner is in the same place as when it started, therefore hasn't moved.
I've suggested a clarification and/or alternate wording on the DBMM list:
"For the purpose of this condition, the inside corner of a
wheeling group is deemed to have moved less than maximum distance,
even if it has merely pivoted in place."
OR
add another DE condition "the outside corner of a wheeling group
moves less than maximum distance" or something like that.
Anyway, it seems that I'm the only person in the world who thinks that the rule doesn't say what the author means it to say, so I'll shut up now before the Inquisition comes calling! :-)
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Barritus
I agree, a partial wheel should cost an extra PIP. What I'm saying is that the rule doesn't say that. Phil has used the word corner, and a corner is a point, which doesn't move during the wheel. At the end of a wheel, the corner is in the same place as when it started, therefore hasn't moved.
I've suggested a clarification and/or alternate wording on the DBMM list:
"For the purpose of this condition, the inside corner of a
wheeling group is deemed to have moved less than maximum distance,
even if it has merely pivoted in place."
OR
add another DE condition "the outside corner of a wheeling group
moves less than maximum distance" or something like that.
I think there's a lot in DBMM which could do with being clarified, Mr Barker's statements notwithstanding. I see no reason not to clarify this as well.
Anyway, it seems that I'm the only person in the world who thinks that the rule doesn't say what the author means it to say, so I'll shut up now before the Inquisition comes calling! :-)
Just look out for Hd (F) elements armed with pitchforks and flaming torches... ;-)
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Will do!
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I agree with Barritus.
Even if the inside point did not physically move forward or backwards it did still pivot in place. which is still moving.
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Phil has "officially" clarified that a corner that does not move counts as moving less than maximum.
If you think about this, a halt is a difficult evolution as neither corner moves! But I won't go there ;)
Bryan
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A halt is very specifically defined as not being a move, so that the difficult evolution PIPs don't apply to it.
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But are difficult evolutions specifically defined as moves, and moves only?
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1 PIP is expendid for:
Each march or tactical move by an element or group.
Each halt by a single impetuous, broken or naval element.
Each halt by a broken group or a group including impetuous irregulars.
And in a couple of places extra or less PIPs are required or
move...or halt....
"Both a group's front corners move less than maximum distance unless...
And
A halt is not a move,....
IMO in DBM you are only moving if you are making some type of action that is defined in DBMM as a move - ie tactical, march, spontaneous, flee, rout, recoil, pursue, press forward, etc.
the penlaty for moving short only applies to moves - and only for such moves as require PIPs in the first place
ergo a halt does not require extra PIPs for moving less than max distance because it is not a move in the DBMM sense.
however reading this section I've realised that we've been doing something wrong here anyway - the free move for pike is only for march moves - we've been giving them free tactical moves too, which has been damned useful for gettign into contact!
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Yes - free tactical moves for Pike would make them a little too manouverable!
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We were only giving it to them for straight ahead, so not a lot of manouvring was involved!! ;D
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OK - not manouverable, but a little too advantageously spontaneous.
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Hi,
I would like some clarifications about accumulative PIPs. Only DE specify that +1 PIP is needed for each bullet listed in it. But what happens to all other situations? For example:
a) How many additional Pips are needed to move a disheartened friend 840 p away from its general?
b) And how many if making a 3rd consecutive march move (assume it's irregular) used to contact enemy?
Let's suppose all moves are straight ahead at max speed.
Thank you.
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You only count one instance of (a) -(f) with the one exception being (d) Difficult Evolutions - which will count an extra PIP for each applicable bullet
So in your examples
a) How many additional Pips are needed to move a disheartened friend 840 p away from its general?
This would be 2 PIPs in total 1 for the tactical move +1 for (a) Command Difficulty
b) And how many if making a 3rd consecutive march move (assume it's irregular) used to contact enemy?
This would also be 2 PIPs in total 1 for the tactical move +1 for (c) Unresponsive, Mixed or Forced Marching Troops
Let's suppose all moves are straight ahead at max speed.
Regards
David Mather
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I see. Thank you very much again. :D
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A few scenarios some have been previously covered but I am still a bit unsure.
Scenario 1: Warband group 2 elements wide wheels
PIP Cost 4 PIPS
1 PIP to move
+1 diff evolution of the wheel
+1 Both a groups front corners movement is less than max move
+1 irreg ineptness
Scenario 2: single Reg Bd element turns ends up half a move from its starting position facing 90 degrees right
PIP Cost 1 PIPS
1 PIP to move
Scenario 3: single irreg Bd element turns ends up half a move from its starting position facing 90 degrees right
PIP Cost 2 PIPS
1 PIP to move
+1 irreg ineptness
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All good, but a clarification for scenario 1:
The +1 penalty for both corners moving less than max only applies if the outside (wheeling) corner moves less than maximum (ie less than 160p or 200 if wb(F))
Bryan
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Thanks for the clarification on the PIP costs.
The only issue I find confusing is the ?Difficult Evolution? for not moving max distance. The rules state, Both a group?s front corners move less than max distance, unless it either (i) ends in any contact with friends not already in edge contact with it, (ii) ends with its front edge in contact with the enemy, (iii) ends when its front corner or front edge reaches the edge of rough , difficult or impassable going, (iv) turns 180 degree, or expands or turns 90 degree from column.
Using the example of a 2 element wide warband group it starts its move by wheeling left 45 degrees and moving its max move. Now the inside element remained stationary during the 45 degree wheel accordingly it doesn?t move as far as the outside element.
The wording of the rule refers to ?Both? front corners of the group moving the max distance. In the above example the inside corner of the group moves less than the outside corner. Also exceptions listed under (iv) refer to instances of movement where the penalty doesn?t apply.
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i wonder if anyone is collecting up these "clarifications" into a volume that i could buy???
and attach it to the rules.
I bet there would be more pages in the Clarifications...lol
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madmike
Using the example of a 2 element wide warband group it starts its move by wheeling left 45 degrees and moving its max move. Now the inside element remained stationary during the 45 degree wheel accordingly it doesn?t move as far as the outside element.
The wording of the rule refers to ?Both? front corners of the group moving the max distance. In the above example the inside corner of the group moves less than the outside corner.
This isn't a difficult evolution as at least one of the corners has moved maximum distance. For it to be a DE, both corners have to move less than maximum. It's a particularly clumsy sentence IMHO. A clearer way of saying it might have been "neither corner moves maximum distance"
Bryan
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To Loki223 go www.dbmm.org.uk then click on resources theres a PDF to download
Les
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:D On rereading the BOTH corners moving less than the max move makes more sense now
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To Loki223 go www.dbmm.org.uk then click on resources theres a PDF to download
Les
Sorry, could specify wich one? There are more than 30 documents and I can't see where! :P
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Dear friends,
Call me stupid, but I having more and more problems as I read the PIPs section. >:(.For what I understand, in DBMM:
1. Regular elements and regular groups spend the same PIPs as under DBM.
2. Irregular elements and irregular groups (except lights, Cv, etc) spend and additional PIP per wheel and an additional PIP if moving both front corners less.
I don't include brand new things like contacting marches or advancing disheartened, just "normal" maneouvres. So my question is, should it be so difficult to write it? :-[
Thank you.
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Because its not that simple.
e.g. Regular groups not in column pay at least 2 PIPs if their move includes a wheel. In DBM it was only 1 PIP.
You need to read the whole section carefully.
Niall
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I have read it and played a couple 125 point games and still dont have it down.
Getting better with the help of this forum though... ;)