Contacting rear corners

[landmeister]

Hi all,

I'm afraid I'm too DBM-minded but I can't find what happens when a single enemy element is contacted by my front egde's group. This case is not mentioned in the section "turning to fight" and is not included in the "moving into combat" section either. In this last one only front corners are mentioned.

Can't rear corners be contacted at all? 

Thank you in advance

[andrew]

Hi

I'm not an expert with this and I cannot find any reference in the body of the rules that states a single element must conform to a group when contacted by that groups front edge (we all know this is the case but I can;t find it in the rules either!).  HOWEVER, my version of the rules (March 2007) the description under picture 24b states : "...but this time Spear E is a single element and therefore must conform to the contacting group.".

So if a single element must conform but is contacted on a rear corner, is the rear corner counted as part of the rear edge or part of the flank?  If it is the flank then it must turn to face - if it is the rear then the only legal contact would be the single elements rear corners to the front corners of one of the elements of the group - but that seems like a pretty bizarre conformance to me.  Not forgetting that for a rear edge contact you must start behind that imaginary line......

Sorry - not much help there.

Andrew

[landmeister]

So if a single element must conform but is contacted on a rear corner, is the rear corner counted as part of the rear edge or part of the flank?  If it is the flank then it must turn to face - if it is the rear then the only legal contact would be the single elements rear corners to the front corners of one of the elements of the group - but that seems like a pretty bizarre conformance to me.  Not forgetting that for a rear edge contact you must start behind that imaginary line......

Sorry - not much help there.

Thank you very much for your help. This is just what I've seen. An individual element never must conform if contacted on a rear corner. Your 8 elements wide line must conform to it  . Are we the only ones seeing it or just the only ones missing anything? 

Once again thank you very much.

[andrew]

I'm not so sure about your interpretation given the 'single element conforming' comment per the diagrams.

I think we are missing something because on page 33, under the 'extra movement' heading, the rules state : "A ... contacted ... element ... moves up to an extra 80p if the extra movement is used to line up with an enemy front ... by (a) sideways shift and /or (b) wheel or pivot ...".

I think the wheel/pivot bit applies here and the contacted single element could pivot to a legal flank contact and then turn to face - that would be my interpretation if I was controlling the single element.  If however I was controlling the group and started from behind an imaginary line extending from the rear edge of the single element, I would be claiming I contacted the rear of the element and the pivot would be a rear edge to a front edge by the single element (-2 for the single element in the ensuing combat with a quick kill).

Just my opinion - I'm happy to chew this over and maybe ask some friends at the club this coming Sunday.

Andrew

[nftaylor]

See the rules on Moving into Close Combat. 'An element initiates close combat with enemy by moving its front edge into contact....with the enemy?s:....Corner.   The initiating element must be part of a group that moved only straight forward....the enemy element...  must immediately pivot or wheel and/or shift sideways as needed to end in front edge contact.....'

If the enemy element is part of a group then it has the option of remaining stationary.

Niall

[andrew]

Ah - I see we omitted the obvious.  Yes the contacted element (even on a rear corner) would turn to face the group.  Intuitively I think we knew it - just couldn't see it in the rules.  And re-reading the rules, for a rear edge contact one cannot claim the rear corner is a rear edge. because it has to be a full front to rear and corner to corner.  I think it is pretty obvious now....

[landmeister]

See the rules on Moving into Close Combat. 'An element initiates close combat with enemy by moving its front edge into contact....with the enemy?s:....Corner.   The initiating element must be part of a group that moved only straight forward....the enemy element...  must immediately pivot or wheel and/or shift sideways as needed to end in front edge contact.....'

In understand your logic, but can I be more Barkerese than Barker? The extra move can be made by shifting sideways, pivots or wheels. You can only shift sideways once your front edge has been previously lined up the enemy's, so we must pivot/wheel previously. Right?

Ok. On page 28 a pivot is defined (for a single element) as a rotation around 1) a stationary front corner or 2) the point of contact of another element. If contacted on a rear corner and rotaing around a front corner leads that element out of contact!!  . If rotating around the point of contact (the rear corner), only the flank or the rear edge can be lined up, as andrew said. In no case the front edge of the contacted element is lined up against the enemy's by following the strict sense of the rules as written.

The situation is not different when reading the definition of a wheel. Wheels can be made by rotating around a MOVING front corner...moving along a road, river or terrain edge, or around a moving or stationary front corner...by a group. What happens to a single element NOT on a road, river, etc.

By the way, this raises a new question. It seems that a single element CANNOT wheel like in DBM!!! . This is a contradition when looking at diagram 1, option B. If so, why isn't it specified? The whole paragraph on page 28 is extremely detailed, so why this "gap".

Please, don't get me wrong, but I see strong arguments for anyone defending that you cannot end in front contact so easily in this case. 

If the enemy element is part of a group then it has the option of remaining stationary.

Sure? But how is it considered then, as fighting front to front and overlapped without turning  as is specified on page 33? It says "...the contacted element fights as if in front edge combat with that contacting it and oberlapped once on its outer corner".

I'm afraid that the whole "Corner" section is designed for front corners only. This strengthens your logic, but, once again, why this strange gap about rear corners?

Just my two cents 

[andrew]

My opinion (just my opinion) is that if the contacted single element opted to remain where it was then it would incur a -1 for being overlapped (much like the front corner rule, except that rule does only stipulate the front corner) and -1 again for not being able to recoil.

It doesn't really make sense for the single element to pivot out of contact - if that were the case then the group should be able to push up to close the gap.  Or if the single element pivots out of contact of the element on the end of the line of the group, then I'd say it still has to make contact with the element on the end of the group - I don't think it can pivot out of contact because the pivots/shifts are used to make legal contacts.

Just my 2c

[landmeister]

In think this part of the rules is very under ruled!  :'(

[landmeister]

Absolutely! 

[toby]

I think you are allowed to pivot and shift to get into contact.

The key bit in the whole paragraph is the bit at the top where Phil says that you must end up in contact if it would be historically possible and geometric ploys must not be allowed to prevent this. In effect squiggle or move the elements so that it makes sense. Which is the principle that WAB has been using for years, apparently without any problems at all.

I think that you need to use some common sense and both agree in a spirit of sportsmanship. The rules cannot cover every eventuality of contact, as we found in DBM, so it has now become a general principle with some guidelines. The whole thing would be a lot better if the bases were circular

Toby

[landmeister]

I think you are allowed to pivot and shift to get into contact.

The key bit in the whole paragraph is the bit at the top where Phil says that you must end up in contact if it would be historically possible and geometric ploys must not be allowed to prevent this. In effect squiggle or move the elements so that it makes sense. Which is the principle that WAB has been using for years, apparently without any problems at all.

I think that you need to use some common sense and both agree in a spirit of sportsmanship. The rules cannot cover every eventuality of contact, as we found in DBM, so it has now become a general principle with some guidelines.

This is what terrifies me!  . Every time I wanted to use common sense in DBM I was replied with a loudy "The rules doesn't specify so!!"  . Unfortunately, DBM (and DBMM) are so terribly written that things almost never are so easy to understand. Just look at this case.

The whole thing would be a lot better if the bases were circular

I agree 

Thank you

[DaveMather]

This occurred in at least two games at the Warfare competition in the UK this weekend

Once involving a single element and once involving a group 

The rules do not totally cover it - the single element can only use up to 80 paces of move to conform - in the rear contact instance it will take more than 80 paces of pivot/wheel/slide to get into legal contact which would be front edge to front edge-

You are correct on the group issue it could stay and fight with a -2 penalty -1 for overlap and -1 for unable to recoil

Fortunately one of the key play testers was present so we now know what the intent was (which is the single element will turn and conform much like a flank contact) - just a case of working out some wording to add to the rules that doesn't cause a domino effect somewhere else in the rules - it is being discussed off line

Be back soon with hopefully a proposed answer/wording change - which will ideally need the author's ratification.


Regards

David Mather

 

[landmeister]

Hi Dave,

Thank you very much for your response. Would it be this logic?

1. Single element contacted on a rear corner.
2. It uses 80 p free movemnt to line up its flank against the enemy front.
3. All single elements contacted on a flank and not in their front immediately turn to fight front to front.

Is this more or less?

David

[DaveMather]

Thats certainly the logic and we now know was the intent in playtesting

We just need the rules to actually say that without having a knock on effect elsewhere

Regards

David Mather