One about marches

[landmeister]

Single elements are not groups, therefore it makes no difference where they are, they do not affect marching at any distance, with or without fortifications.

That's true for groups, but not for single elements. Single elements can't march at less than 400p of enemy single elements. My question is, does it also happen when the enemy element is byond TF AND less than 400p?

[LawrenceG]

Single elements are not groups, therefore it makes no difference where they are, they do not affect marching at any distance, with or without fortifications.

That's true for groups, but not for single elements. Single elements can't march at less than 400p of enemy single elements. My question is, does it also happen when the enemy element is byond TF AND less than 400p?

Groups and singles can march if there is no enemy group within 400p, not counting enemy groups beyond friendly fortifications (there can be enemy singles).

SIngle elements do not prevent single elements from marching. 

Groups moving only straight ahead can march with enemy groups within 400p if they conform to (a), (b) or (c) on p28 para 4. Single elements cannot do this.

[landmeister]

SIngle elements do not prevent single elements from marching. 

Sorry for this late answer Lawrence. As you can read in the previous messages of this thread, this is not the consensus of how marches have to be played. Toby Partdridge and Lorenzo Mele agree that single enemy elements do stop single elements to continue marching when within 400 p. Your interpretation was the first one I had when I read it first. Sadly, the wording is obscure enough to not bring light to it. 

[LawrenceG]

SIngle elements do not prevent single elements from marching.  

Sorry for this late answer Lawrence. As you can read in the previous messages of this thread, this is not the consensus of how marches have to be played. Toby Partdridge and Lorenzo Mele agree that single enemy elements do stop single elements to continue marching when within 400 p. Your interpretation was the first one I had when I read it first. Sadly, the wording is obscure enough to not bring light to it.  

Toby said he didn't have his rules with him when he answered.

I think Lorenzo misunderstood the English, due to what he says (about contiguous single elements that are not lined up in a group) having been discussed during playtesting and possibly included in one of the draft versions.

THe text is "...all enemy within 400p are single elements or are groups that (a)..(b)...(c)..."

That second "are" means that the (a)(b)(c) applies only to the groups, not to the single elements.

In my native opinion, that paragraph means:

Anything (groups or singles) can march (i.e. start a march move)  however they like if there are no enemy groups within 400p (not counting any that are  beyond friendly fortifications). Enemy single elements are not mentioned which implies they do not affect marching in this case.

Groups can march straight ahead if there are enemy groups within 400p, provided that all enemy within 400p fall into one of the following categories:

1. Single elements

2a. Groups that do not contain contiguous-non skirmisher elements
2b. Groups that are entirely train
2c. Groups that have a rear corner closer to the marchers than both front corners.

This would have been less confusing if it was worded "...and all enemy groups within 400p..." instead of just "...all enemy within 400p..." because then there would have been no need to mention single elements at all. Unfortunately we didn't think of this at the time.

[landmeister]

I have to admit that it sounds logical. Toby, Lorenzo, what do you think?

[toby]

Yes - Lawrence's parsing, as usual, seems to me to be correct and much easier to understand than Phil's original sentence.

[landmeister]

Two more questions about marches.

1. Moving straight ahead within 400 p of lights, Train, single elements... Can a column move three marches straight ahead out of 400 p, then expand into a line and then continue marching straight ahead untill less than 400 of lights, Train, etc? I would say no, but the rules say that "...a full length march move can be used instead to change formation...". Is this change included in the straught ahead move or not?

2. Full length marches. Only the last march move can be less than full distance. What happens if a group moves less than its max to join into another column that didn't move? Can this new bigger column make march moves? A part of it moved less than its max move.

Thank you in advance.

[LawrenceG]

Two more questions about marches.

1. Moving straight ahead within 400 p of lights, Train, single elements... Can a column move three marches straight ahead out of 400 p, then expand into a line and then continue marching straight ahead untill less than 400 of lights, Train, etc? I would say no, but the rules say that "...a full length march move can be used instead to change formation...". Is this change included in the straught ahead move or not?

2. Full length marches. Only the last march move can be less than full distance. What happens if a group moves less than its max to join into another column that didn't move? Can this new bigger column make march moves? A part of it moved less than its max move.

Thank you in advance.

The formation changes on p 29 use up a full length march move, so do not have to be the last march move in a sequence. You can march again after changing formation.

They are instead of a normal move, not included in it, so you cannot include in your single PIP outlay both a formation change AND a move straight ahead. They are two separate moves. (But note that forming a column will include forward movement by the front element anyway)

A formation change is not a move straight ahead, for obvious reasons (i.e. one or more elements does not move straight ahead). IF within 400p of a group of skirmishers etc. you cannot start a march move to change formation, or start any march move if you have previously changed formation.


If a group moves less than full distance and joins the back of another group, then those elements have moved less than full distance, so that has to be their final march move. (It doesn?t cost extra PIPs but it is still less than full distance).

[landmeister]

The formation changes on p 29 use up a full length march move, so do not have to be the last march move in a sequence. You can march again after changing formation.

They are instead of a normal move, not included in it, so you cannot include in your single PIP outlay both a formation change AND a move straight ahead. They are two separate moves. (But note that forming a column will include forward movement by the front element anyway)

A formation change is not a move straight ahead, for obvious reasons (i.e. one or more elements does not move straight ahead). IF within 400p of a group of skirmishers etc. you cannot start a march move to change formation, or start any march move if you have previously changed formation.

Sorry, but I can't see why it is not considered a normal move outside 400p and it is within 400p of a group of skirmishers, Train, etc. As you say, changing formations are instead of a normal move. Shouldn't they treated in the same way?

If a group moves less than full distance and joins the back of another group, then those elements have moved less than full distance, so that has to be their final march move. (It doesn?t cost extra PIPs but it is still less than full distance).

Ok. Thank you.

[LawrenceG]

The formation changes on p 29 use up a full length march move, so do not have to be the last march move in a sequence. You can march again after changing formation.

They are instead of a normal move, not included in it, so you cannot include in your single PIP outlay both a formation change AND a move straight ahead. They are two separate moves. (But note that forming a column will include forward movement by the front element anyway)

A formation change is not a move straight ahead, for obvious reasons (i.e. one or more elements does not move straight ahead). IF within 400p of a group of skirmishers etc. you cannot start a march move to change formation, or start any march move if you have previously changed formation.

Sorry, but I can't see why it is not considered a normal move outside 400p and it is within 400p of a group of skirmishers, Train, etc. As you say, changing formations are instead of a normal move. Shouldn't they treated in the same way?

Possibly my fault for using a loose term like "normal move" to mean a move in which all elements move the same distance or wheel through the same angles etc.

I wasn?t 100% sure what your original question was. I thought it might be:

Can I spend 1 PIP on a regular column and expand it and include a move straight ahead for that same PIP?

If so, the answer is no.

If it was :

Does expanding a column count as a straight ahead move and therefore allow me to make the moves permitted only to groups that move straight ahead?

Then the answer is no.

If it was

Does expanding a column count as a move of full distance and therefore it can be followed by additional march moves?

Then the answer is yes. 

[landmeister]

If it was :

Does expanding a column count as a straight ahead move and therefore allow me to make the moves permitted only to groups that move straight ahead?

Then the answer is no.

This is what my doubt was about. Sorry for my ambiguity. Thank you very much for your answer.